Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

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Yorindesarin
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Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by Yorindesarin » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:37 pm

So I have a series 1 2006 RX8 with the stock start motor still kicking. Obviously this is a bit of a concern to me as I know it can lead to low RPM starts etc. I've managed to find two options for an uprated starter motor aftermarket.

Either this from essex rotary:

http://essexrotarystore.com/product/ess ... -for-rx-8/

Or this from Schmitz:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MAZDA-RX8-ST ... 20eaa0a580

Now my question is this, is the 4th iteration (R3 starter motor) worth 4 times the amount of an uprated 3rd iteration motor?

Help would be greatly appreciated!

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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by Scartlead » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:45 pm

I use the Schmitz myself. All good , no problems at all :thumright:
Aka Mark

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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by Yorindesarin » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:50 pm

Awesome. I originally saw the essex rotary starter and was like "I could get that in a while" but I feel like Id rather get an uprated starter ASAP and the Schmitz looks affordable plus club discount. Would rather spend 50 odd quid preventatively then have my engine die due to trying to wait to get the R3 starter.

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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by Nickp47 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:53 pm

Do you know which version of the stock starter you have on your car?

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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by Scartlead » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:54 pm

Fitted another Schmitz to a friend's 8, stuck with an original slow starter and struggling to start 8. The difference , as you expect was instant and, at least from my own perspective, was money well spent.
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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by Yorindesarin » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:37 pm

Nickp47 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:53 pm
Do you know which version of the stock starter you have on your car?
I imagine its either the first or second iteration. I've not actually had a look yet and I can't off the top of my head recall when things changed. The car turns over in about 4-6ish seconds currently not that I've actually counted completely.

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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by 350matt » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:39 pm

I also have one of the those 14 Tooth ebay starters
bought from these guys though who are a little more expensive but does come with a years gaurentee

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MAZDA-RX8-RX ... SwiSJbg7Fb


works a treat cranking speed lept up from 160 rpm to 270 rpm

starts a lot easier

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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by Yorindesarin » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:47 pm

Cool. Thats all I wanted to know really. Will snap up a schmitz one for now. :) And probably fit it when I change my brake pads. Want to try to keep my RX8 as healthy as possible.

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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by qwakers » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:51 pm

350matt wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:39 pm
I also have one of the those 14 Tooth ebay starters
bought from these guys though who are a little more expensive but does come with a years gaurentee

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MAZDA-RX8-RX ... SwiSJbg7Fb


works a treat cranking speed lept up from 160 rpm to 270 rpm

starts a lot easier
yup they're spot on :D have one myself.

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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by MarksRx8 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:26 pm

I bought a Schmitz starter and it only spins at 200rpm when engine is cold and 240rpm warm.
Waste of money and time.
And they refuse refund without 'inspection'
and told me it was due to my engine low compression (which is actually very good)
Can't risk sending back and more arguments
I'll just right it off to experience buying cheap crap

Beware SCHMITZ_RE

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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by sKenDread » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:28 pm

MarksRx8 wrote:I bought a Schmitz starter and it only spins at 200rpm when engine is cold and 240rpm warm.
Waste of money and time.
And they refuse refund without 'inspection'
and told me it was due to my engine low compression (which is actually very good)
Can't risk sending back and more arguments
I'll just right it off to experience buying cheap crap

Beware SCHMITZ_RE
I had one on my previous. It seemed to work fine.
On my current I'm using AAP
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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by PaulAV » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:46 pm

Best starter motor from my experience was a wasp high torque starter, not cheap at about £300 but it was more than upto the job
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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by Ranjan » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:48 pm

As a bit of a balance, I have been using Schmitz for starters for ages mainly because they are less than a mile from me and have never had a complaint about them. Must have bought over 30 in the last 6 years for various company vehicles.

Ranjan.
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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by Yorindesarin » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:53 pm

MarksRx8 wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:26 pm
I bought a Schmitz starter and it only spins at 200rpm when engine is cold and 240rpm warm.
Waste of money and time.
And they refuse refund without 'inspection'
and told me it was due to my engine low compression (which is actually very good)
Can't risk sending back and more arguments
I'll just right it off to experience buying cheap crap

Beware SCHMITZ_RE
What are your compression numbers? Most starters turn the engine at 200-240RPM~ on a lot of members cars and healthy engines should kick right in...

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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by MarksRx8 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:41 pm

I don't have any starting problems
I didn't have any with the old starter
I was told by my local, very well respected Rx8 specialist that my old starter was getting slow at 215rpm
So I thought I'd get a new one since the car would be up on ramps to do the engine mounts
The engine has only done 9000 since rebuild, new BH coils, new magnecor 8.3mm leads, new iridium plugs, new hi amp battery etc etc

The engine is very good

What Isn't good is a "HIGH TORQUE 14-TOOTH N3R3" that only spins at 200rpm
when club members get 300 to 330rpm from their uprated starters

What is even less good is a supplier refusing to accept video evidence of cold and warm starts.
Disgusting customer service.

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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by Yorindesarin » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:26 pm

Who do you know who has a 300RPM starter motor that didn't pay £200-300 for it? Most peoples starter motors that they paid 50 quid for turn the engine at around 250RPM~ which is more than adequate.. I'm honestly curious.. If you have no issues and whoever your RX8 specialist is... Would be good to know.

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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by MarksRx8 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:08 am

A member stated on this forum that his starter did 330rpm from Mazda Rotary Parts & probably less than £100
Rotary Revs say that N3R3 2Kw typically deliverers 290 to 330rpm

So not unreasonable to expect better than 200rpm from a supplier that quotes "N3R3 Latest Version Most Advanced Rx8 Starter"

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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by Yorindesarin » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:26 am

https://www.mazdarotaryparts.com/MAZDA- ... ual-models You mean this? Which is almost 3 times the price of what you paid... You paid the lowest end of things and are expecting high end performance. The starter from RR is £190. I don't get how you expect something that you paid so little for to perform similarly to things that cost more. Also if the RPM is fluxuating between cold/warm starts (this shouldn't happen the starting RPM should be the same) then its maybe possible your battery's CCA isn't as good as it could be? Or its not charged enough and the starters demanding more current than its supplying. My starter from Schmitz turns my engine over (original none rebuilt, compressions in the high 5s engine) at 246RPM every time without fail... Don't cheap out on something and then complain when its not working the same as more expensive parts.

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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by MarksRx8 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:21 am

new battery, with new terminals, new plugs, new coils etc etc so the car is good.
I'm not sure why you are defending such a poor starter

200rpm is not acceptable from a new starter
even if it is cheap.
It is being advertised as "the most advanced Rx8 starter"
and performs worse that a 10 year old standard unit

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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by Yorindesarin » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:32 am

Well change it back for the old one. You cheaped out and took a risk... You're the first I've seen to complain about these starters... But I honestly don't get what you expected from something for 50 quid.

It's like buying OEM spec brake pads for 20 quid then expecting them to work like EBC blues.

Don't get me wrong I'm not defending the starter as per say. I'm just saying you get what you pay for. If your old one was turning it at 215RPM (lets presume hot) it was probably spinning lower whilst cold, huh? The thing you have to remember is that most original starter motors on S1s are now up to 16 years old. Some spin the engine at 150RPM. 50 quid for up to +100RPM isn't a bad thing... And could make the difference between having an engine for longer or it going pop. Its still uprated. Not as high as you personally like but you know... Thats just you.

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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by sKenDread » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:52 am


MarksRx8 wrote:I don't have any starting problems
I didn't have any with the old starter
I was told by my local, very well respected Rx8 specialist that my old starter was getting slow at 215rpm
So I thought I'd get a new one since the car would be up on ramps to do the engine mounts
The engine has only done 9000 since rebuild, new BH coils, new magnecor 8.3mm leads, new iridium plugs, new hi amp battery etc etc

The engine is very good

What Isn't good is a "HIGH TORQUE 14-TOOTH N3R3" that only spins at 200rpm
when club members get 300 to 330rpm from their uprated starters

What is even less good is a supplier refusing to accept video evidence of cold and warm starts.
Disgusting customer service.
What pricks my ears up here is that you said the supplier is refusing to accept a video. I honestly know of no supplier that would. They have asked to see the car to rule out the starter. That seems very fair to me that they would ask of this. If you had a mechanic to do the fit, they would usually ask you to bring the car back in for the same reason. And quite possibly if it was the starter, the mechanic would request a return from the supplier.
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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by MarksRx8 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:01 pm

OK fair point, maybe too much to expect them to accept video evidence.

Doesn't change the fact that it is very poor performance when it is being advertised as
MOST ADVANCED RX8 STARTER
If it was advertised honestly, then no problem

Quote From a well respected site giving info about starter rpm:

"Renesis engine requires a minimum crank speed of around 250rpm to start (on a perfectly healthy engine). Should the crank speed drop much below this you may well begin to experience start-up issues."

N3H1 220-250 "The N3H1 soon proved insufficient however, forcing Mazda put out a service bulletin that allowed RX-8 owners to have their
starter motor swapped out for an uprated 2kw model, the N3H1-A." A recall for 220-250 !!!
N3H1A 260-280
N3Z1 290
N3R3 290-330 This is the same spec as the Ebay rubbish is claiming but actually 200-240

The great thing about this forum is that we share knowledge, experience and opinions so we can all learn

I have had a bad experience, I have rigorously tested the starter on a very healthy engine with numerous new parts
and have offered results here so that others can make an informed decision.

Some seem to be of the opinion that 200rpm from a supplier claimimg N3R3 spec is acceptable, and I respect their opinion.
I, however, think that an rpm less than my 10 year old unit that an expert told me was on the way out at 215, don't think is acceptable.

Enough said, I'll right off the mistake and gratefully take members already received recommendations for better units, thanks
Last edited by MarksRx8 on Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by Yorindesarin » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:05 pm

I still want to know who this "expert" is. I'm not just going to accept the opinion of an unknown expert am I?

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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by sKenDread » Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:27 pm

Personally I would think that maybe you got one a buggered one. And it would make sense that the supplier would want to see this. Also if it was a buggered one, I'd expect them to replace it if it's within the warranty period.
I found mine would easily spin around 300+ rpm. Hence why am surprised that it doesn't for you.
But blaming Schmitz for this, not attempting to rectify it and trashing in them for the world to see, puts businesses out of business.
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Re: Changing my starter motor. Which should I buy..?

Post by MarksRx8 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:04 am

I HAVE tried to rectify this:
Very Many messages to them
They are adamant it is due to low compression or the engine change
I'm not spending £60 on a compression test for a £60 starter, the engine is new and very good
I don't have starting problems and anyway low compression would not cause a starter to spin slowly.
They have had every chance to be reasonable.

As someone said on here, I shouldn't expect the same performance from a £60 unit as a more expensive one
But equally cheap poor performance starters should not be miss sold as performing better than they are capable of.

written off to experience
I will buy a replacement from a recommended reputable supplier

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