Announcement: New recall for R3s

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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by R1DSO »

I've been lurking on this thread, but have had to bite the bullet to book in recall work on my R3 for 18th Jan as my MOT runs out at the end of the month.

I've gone with my local TW White & Sons (Bookham), who have a good reputation and say they’ve done quite a few of these recalls already. TW White say the bulletin advises on a half-full tank (or less) to install a fuel pump union kit – which consists of fuel pump ring/ring retainer, fuel pump gasket and thermal padding – and that there is no advice to fill the tank up again to check for leaks :-k.

For ease, I've booked my MOT for the same date, as TW White & Sons have onsite testing. I've said that the car needs to be really warm to get through omissions with the 200 cell RB cat (it only just scraped through at TPS last year), so fingers crossed that won't be an issue.

To help with omissions, I may try another bottle of Cataclean + leave out the Idemitsu premix when refilling (if I can get through enough petrol in time). I'm also going to try and squeeze in another engine oil change as I'm now over 3k miles (including 1x track day) since my last double flush and filter change.

I could be imagining it, but I've speculated whether my omissions are worse when dirtier engine oil is being sprayed into the rotor housing vs fresh stuff from a recent refill.
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by ChrisHolmes »

Dr. FrankenRex wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:45 am
The recall isn't the same as the S1. I've had a chat with the technician and he has advised the below:
So have looked and it does look like just the gasket and fuel rings not the actual pump unlike the old ones. So it says after the check is just drive it for a bit and stop 5 to 6 times. So not as bad as the old one. They say it can be done in under an hour but well I'd still allow a bit of time as this recall is new. So partly the same as the old recall but not as bad.
The seal still needs to be fitted correctly and the locking ring tightened correctly which given that they are the same design as the S1 says to me that the leak rusk due to incorrect tightening will still exist.
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by rotatopotato »

It seems like mazda have decided to forget the lessons learned from the S1 recall 🙄
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by casey »

Email sent to Mazda UK:
Hi Stuart

.........

Things are moving on apace with owners contacting dealers about this recall and so I’d welcome your comments on the following:

1. Several RX-8 R3 owners have tried to book their car into dealers for this “urgent safety recall” but have been informed (by more than one dealer; Littlewick Maidenhead is but one example) that parts will not be available to effect the recall until March?

2. As Mazda UK are unable to provide the written procedure for this recall, our research has revealed that the technicians are advised to “drive the car and stop 5/6 times” to check for leaks. This appears to be reverting to the check used for the S1 original recall procedure which resulted in a totally unacceptable number of serious fuel leaks, only manifesting when tanks were filled by owners. If you are unable to confirm the exact procedure used and to reassure owners it is sufficient to prevent leaks, we will be urging members to go proceed immediately to the nearest fuel court, fill their tanks and check for leaks. Should they find a leak, can I have your assurance that Mazda UK will IMMEDIATELY take responsibility and arrange for safe recovery of the vehicle back to the dealership for rectification work? Hopefully, this will not be necessary, but the very least Mazda UK should guarantee, given previous history and experience. If Mazda UK are confident in the procedure, I cannot see there being any issue in offering this guarantee to owners.

Regards
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by SeanP »

Many thanks to the Committee for being persistent here to get a consistent, safe and workable process in place...
I have, for now, kept my appointment on 13th with Lodge and will interrogate them further before committing to taking the car with them..
They fully admit they are UNABLE to perform a full fuel check - because of lack of fuel stations in proximity so I will also insist then that I brim the tank afterward, and if there is any indication of leaks - they can recover the car from the fuel station for remediation...

Interesting that they have not yet mentioned any parts availability issue - it could be that they ordered them and bet whatever is causing the shortage?
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by rotatopotato »

SeanP wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:31 pm
They fully admit they are UNABLE to perform a full fuel check - because of lack of fuel stations in proximity
Then you should be able to take it in with a brimmed tank and they remove 3/4 and put it back in as per the (very simple) procedure for doing so. So I call bullpoo on that claim.
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by warpc0il »

They won't have Health & Safety approved equipment to drain and refill that volume from the tank.

Even repair garages aren't allowed to store, even temporarily, more than 30L of petrol, total, which includes any other cans they have on-site.

These days, if a car is brought into a dealership with a problem that is diagnosed as "miss-fuelling", e.g. petrol in a diesel tank, then they have to call in a mobile unit with the pumps and tanks etc.
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by Michael73 »

Hi,

So its a complete farce my end. One day before I was due to go in for the recall, I phoned the dealership to check everything was OK. They confirmed they had parts, it was only the gasket that neede changing and that I could come in with a full fuel tank for all they cared. Two hours later they phoned back and said that they had reinspected the parts and it turns out Mazda had sent parts for a different model. Due to parts shortages they've booked me in again for 3 weeks time. Seems like Mazda has quite a few fuel pump related recalls ongoing.

The dealership is Guildford Mazda. I've only previously ordered parts through them, and they were very efficient at that, but I've never used them for any work. Still waiting for that to happen......

- Michael
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by R1DSO »

Michael73 wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:17 pm
Hi,

So its a complete farce my end. One day before I was due to go in for the recall, I phoned the dealership to check everything was OK. They confirmed they had parts, it was only the gasket that neede changing and that I could come in with a full fuel tank for all they cared. Two hours later they phoned back and said that they had reinspected the parts and it turns out Mazda had sent parts for a different model. Due to parts shortages they've booked me in again for 3 weeks time. Seems like Mazda has quite a few fuel pump related recalls ongoing.

The dealership is Guildford Mazda. I've only previously ordered parts through them, and they were very efficient at that, but I've never used them for any work. Still waiting for that to happen......

- Michael
Might be worth giving TW White & Sons in Bookham a shot if you haven’t already. They’re close to Guildford and, by dealer standards, have a decent rep.

I use them for parts + got my airbag recall done there without any dramas.
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by SeanP »

RIght - in a Conundrum now... Littelwick have just called back to say they have the parts in stock... Can I have now *also* booked (provisionally) for the 18th... They are closer, and have on-site fuelling available... But they insist on 1/4 tank (per above from Dave/WarpCoil), but cannot say what the "leak check" procedure may be; I expect a call back... No courtesy car available (until end of month, and it would cost *me*!)

It is also *still* booked with Lodge for this coming Thursday...

In either case - logistics for me are a bit of a nightmare - and neither seems "that keen" on any kind of leak check... (A two car journey for both drop-off and pick-up!)...

The woman from Littlewick (bless her) said "it's replacing some bolts"...

[Update].
I just had the Service Technician from Littlewick call me back (I think he was called Mike)...
I talked through and asked him what the process was and what checks were made.
He was pretty detailed in what's being replaced: "Two sets of seals and gaskets on both sides of the fuel tank. PLUS some heat shielding to prevent them from being affected by the hot exhaust. Causation is incorrect fitting of factory seals and / or heat effect from nearby exhaust over time."
I asked specifically about the leak check...
He said "They would take it for a drive (with 1/4 tank) after the repair, with the back seats removed and they check for leaks by way of smell of vapour - which is says is more of an indicator than an actual liquid leak. They have to provide photographic evidence to Mazda."
He also said "We've done 100s of these in the past and we've not experienced any problems at all, there should be no problem."
When I further "pushed" saying after many recorded incidents of leaks after a full refuel last year, and pressure from the club - Mazda relented and changed their procedures to check with a refuel etc. he then replied "There's no problem with that - we can refuel here and check and charge you the extra. Mazda won't pay for a tank of fuel."

I've accepted that as exactly what is is expected; and said they should suggest this to anybody else they book in...

Still they seem to fall short or Mazda's advice for "this" recall is still different to the other one...

P.S. Knowing I have had the Fuel Pump replaced by Haywards as part of my Rebuild (both "upgraded" - running too rich and subsequently "downgraded"), around 2016... I very much doubt any seals were replaced at the time... (That was also preceded by Steve Dowty's abandoned attempt after he forgot to de-pressurise the tank and, and then could not get his hacked up "Special Service Tool" to work to open it up... Fuel was spilled (pissed out!) WHILST his colleague was busy spraying sparks from an angle-grinder at the same time! :shock: :roll: )

Anyhow, I hope that has no bearing on this Recall? e.g. Can they refuse the recall if they "detect" things have already been accessed / changed?

I will, on this basis, cancel my Lodge Garage booking, because they're at least more receptive to doing "what the customer wants" :-)
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by New Duke »

I'm encouraged by that Sean. The Littlewick technician sounds on the ball at least. Enough that I'm wondering whether to take mine there when the time comes, despite the long journey.
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by casey »

I have received a reply from Mazda UK this morning (with an apology for the delayed response, due to the need to check with other Mazda staff).

Due to the email being marked "Mazda Restricted" I cannot paste the complete reply here, but the critical information is as follows:
....we have stock of the parts required to complete this Recall at the UK Parts warehouse. If you experience other owners being told this, please do ask them to raise this to Mazda Customer Relations who will make contact with the Dealership to assist where possible.
and,
I can confirm that it is no longer a requirement in the procedure to completely fill the fuel tank post repair. The requirement is to refill the fuel tank with any fuel that was drained prior to repair, and then immediately check for leaks at this stage. Once the battery is re-connected and engine started another check should be carried out to ensure there are no leaks around or near the fuel pump unit. If no leaks are found the technician is then guided to drive the vehicle, where the instruction is to accelerate and stop the vehicle suddenly at low speed five to six times, (in order to create a sloshing effect) or in cases where the fuel level is below ¼ of a tank allow the engine to idle for 15 minutes to check there are no signs of vaporised fuel leaking through the fuel tank unit gasket. The above checks are all completed whilst the rear seat cushion and service hole cover are removed, in order that the tank unit is visible during these checks. Once this fuel leak check is completed the technician is then required to sign the job card stating that the checks has been completed successfully. Therefore although this may sound similar to the instruction initially given in the similar campaign for older models the revised procedure which involves sloshing the fuel around the fuel tank during road-test was found to be a more reliable way in which to test for fuel leakage.
The statement, "The requirement is to refill the fuel tank with any fuel that was drained prior to repair...." is interesting. I have immediately posed the question as to whether it is acceptable for owners to brim their tanks prior to dropping off at the dealers. It would give more confidence in the leak test to have as much fuel as possible sloshing around using the stated procedure.
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by New Duke »

Thank you Malcolm.

I hope the container that they're draining the fuel into is spotless if they'll be pouring it back into the fuel tank.
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by Delanor »

Surely stopping and starting a few times over a short distance with a low level in the tank is a bit different to a drive where braking/accelerating/cornering for a long distance with a full tank is likely to a exhibit a different result if there is a leak. :-k

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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by SeanP »

Car dropped off this evening at Littlewick; let's see what tomorrow brings! :D

@casey - That feedback is pretty much what the Mazda Technician told me - it's the smell of vapours they are seeking out, not an actual leak.
He said that the vapours are *far more* likely to leak past the seals and be more noticeable than actual fuel.
I can't really "fault" that?

With regard to brimming - No, they would not accept a full tank and double-checked it was 1/4 or less... (I had to go on a blast through the countryside yesterday to guarantee that would be the case!).

That said - they *have* agreed to a full re-fuelling test though (at my expense).
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by R1DSO »

I received a call from TW White & Sons today ahead of my recall slot tomorrow saying that they haven’t had the parts from Mazda yet and, based on a bunch of similar recalls they’re doing on other cars, parts will likely take another month at least.

I’ve kept the MOT booking I have with them as I’ve just done an oil change + catacleaned and filled up (just under the half tank they asked for) without premix to help with emissions [-o<. And, I know some places will fail an MOT if they notice an outstanding recall.
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by warpc0il »

There is no MOT fail for outstanding recalls. It was proposed a couple of years ago but rejected.

It would be useful if outstanding recalls were shown as an Advisory but that wasn't included as an option in the proposal. :roll:

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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by R1DSO »

warpc0il wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:47 pm
There is no MOT fail for outstanding recalls. It was proposed a couple of years ago but rejected.
Oh really?! I wasn’t aware of that. Oh well, having done everything to maximise my chance of passing emissions (including talking to the dealer re the need of testing it hot!), I might as well continue as planned. The MOT expires at the end of the month, anyway.
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by SeanP »

OK - my recall is done, and confirmed OK by Littlewick; including re-fuel with Premium (as requested by me) and test drive with full tank...
They even called me prior to test drive - as my R3 has a tendency to "beep" the oil warning even if the level is "OK".
Anyhow - oil in boot - and happy to top up for me and test drive.
All "A-OK" and signed off from Mazda, I'll pick up this evening.
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by casey »

Good to hear that Sean :thumleft:
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by R1DSO »

SeanP wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:32 pm
OK - my recall is done, and confirmed OK by Littlewick; including re-fuel with Premium (as requested by me) and test drive with full tank...
They even called me prior to test drive - as my R3 has a tendency to "beep" the oil warning even if the level is "OK".
Anyhow - oil in boot - and happy to top up for me and test drive.
All "A-OK" and signed off from Mazda, I'll pick up this evening.
Good to hear. Not sure why my local Mazda need another month to get the parts in given yours has now been sorted :-k.

Side note… Mazda did my MOT today anyway (just not the planned recall work) and the R3 passed its emissions with what look like some decent figures. A relief considering it only just scraped through at TPS last year.
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by casey »

I have had a further email from Mazda UK. In summary, they have confirmed what warpc0il stated:

Owners must deliver their car with around a quarter tank of fuel or less, else they risk being turned away. Mazda UK now admit that many dealers do not have the facility for removing and storing large amounts of fuel.

Based on the S1 experience, I remain sceptical as to the efficacy of the leak test procedure. I would recommend that all owners, on collection of their car, immediately proceed to the nearest fuel station and brim their tank. Then look under the vehicle for any sign of a leak. Hopefully, this is overkill, but better to discover any leak sooner, rather than later and, if a leak is discovered, immediately contact the dealer for them to rectify.

Better still, do as Seanp has done and make an arrangement with the dealer, if they are willing, to fill your tank on completion of the work and check for leaks before collection.

Should anyone discover a fuel leak after this recall work is done, it is imperative that I know immediately as I shall be straight on to Mazda UK to press them to revise the procedure to ensure everyone's safety.
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by casey »

I have just emailed this to Mazda UK:
Hi Stuart

Thank you for your latest email.

The RX-8 Owners Club remain sceptical as to the efficacy of the specified R3 recall leak test procedure, based upon our experience of owners’ reports during the S1 recall. We are extremely disappointed that Mazda UK have dropped the very sensible “full tank” leak check.

We appreciate the process has been slightly revised from the original S1 procedure, but relying on the randomness of fuel “sloshing around” to reveal a leak is far less effective, in our opinion, than the continuous presence of hydrostatic pressure to the entire circumferences of the two tank seals, which would be the case with a brimmed tank.

We are advising owners to request the dealer to fill their tanks and check for leaks before customer collection. This has been done by one owner successfully today and given him full confidence when he collected his vehicle. If that cannot be done, we are advising owners to proceed immediately to the nearest filling station, to brim their tank and check for any obvious leak as best they can.

Hopefully, these extra measures will prove overkill, but give the potential consequences of a fuel leak, we believe it to be a sensible course action.


Regards
Malcolm Case
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by SeanP »

Hi Folks,

OK - Car now picked up (very late) from Littlewick... Another advantage being attached to a 24x7 Fuel station; I could not get there during working hours and arranged to have keys left with fill-up garage, and car left in their car park "at my own risk".

I cannot fault the work done, nor the process followed and additional support they offered at my preference. I paid them earlier in the day on phone, when I knew I'd not make it by closing time...

Casey - I know you are rather skeptical about potential leaks - but I really DO believe that there would be a strong smell of vapour long before evidence of a physical leak, as per the Recommendations by Mazda - even with less fuel in the tank. This is performed "seats out" so they also check physically and have to "sign off" that they have tested with Mazda; with photographic evidence too...

Anyhow - I also gave her a good blast on way home - with a few "select manouevres" just to reassure myself... All seems good on the full tank...

IF anything, and as mentioned above (could still be "placebo" / mind games) but I'd say my car did have a feint "fuelly" whiff internally for past few months; which has now gone completely!
Maybe my seals were on the "way out"!? I always put it down to the decat; but wondered at back of my mind "why inside" sometimes!?
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Re: Announcement: New recall for R3s

Post by warpc0il »

SeanP wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:35 pm
IF anything, and as mentioned above (could still be "placebo" / mind games) but I'd say my car did have a feint "fuelly" whiff internally for past few months; which has now gone completely!
Maybe my seals were on the "way out"!? I always put it down to the decat; but wondered at back of my mind "why inside" sometimes!?
Don't be too surprised if the fuelly whiff comes back, the next time you're driving slower than a tail-wind, as decats are famous for it :D
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