Turbo kit

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Re: Turbo kit

Post by 350matt »

New Duke wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:10 pm
AndyBrad wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:53 pm
So when we pop round for an engine rebuild how much extra is this going to cost us? Im hoping for 500 quid :)
The turbo alone costs £2k ;)

I really hope they can find a way to do it for £5-6k and it still be worth their while. If that's an 'all in fitted' price, and doesn't require a fresh rebuild, then I think it would be a very competitive offering. That may just be wishful thinking on my part though. I was quoted double that by a motorsport company for a custom turbo fitted to my R3 a couple of years ago.

I have to say thats one part of the kit which is a bit hard to swallow, while I don't doubt there will be takers for a premium turbo option there are some remarkably cheap turbos these days that will get the kit price down considerably whilst delivering 80% of the performance - where the cheap stuff tends to fall down is time to 'spool' as the aerodynamics aren't as good but when the turbo is £250 instead of 2K you forgive it a lot
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by MadTaz »

Trying to do turbo on the cheap is where it goes wrong, facebook is full of kits being hashed on the cheap and the results aren't pretty :( , I am on target to deliver this kit which will be more premium than any other kit out there for c£5K that when you think the turbo is £2K is a remarkable achievement, and don't think I'm 'cheaping' out on the rest of the kit either, the work under license is being carried out by PRO-ALLOY. I would say they are pretty premium and their work is A1.

Not sure I'd ever put a £250 turbo near the car,

Also you are missing the point of why the turbo is so expensive, It is internally wastegated which saves money on external waste gates as well as making the plumbing more simple and therefore cheaper :)
Last edited by MadTaz on Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by qwakers »

that's not RRP's style.

as far as I can tell RRP's mantra is do it right, first time. good enough is the enemy of greatness :D

a business model i can completely get behind.

edit, i posted too slow :D
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MadTaz (Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:17 pm)
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by MadTaz »

MightyCondor wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:15 pm
MadTaz wrote: Now for anyone wanting silly power then perhaps a twin turbo REW swap :) (our latest development)
Surely you're not trying to retain the OEM twin turbo setup? From what I gather, there isn't space in the RX-8s engine bay.

Interested to see how your plans develop though, as I really want to do this at some point and would love to see a viable offering Image

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What do you think? ;)

Lets just say I probably won't get any customers lining up for this one :)
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by warpc0il »

People forget just how much a rotary ingests at full chat, even NA.

Most cheap turbos can't keep up with a Renesis beyond ¾ revs, let alone deliver boost.
Those that can are physically large, making them slow to respond, unable to provide boost at lower revs and virtually impossible to package within the engine bay without massive changes.

For a road car, with track potential, you want something had adds to the driving experience across the rev range, and that takes a more compact modern design, that's going to be big budget.

The other advantage is that the supporting/packaging costs are less, so the overall cost doesn't have to be that much higher.

I think Ryan in on the right track (pun intended) and just hope that there's sufficient demand to make this a commercial reality, with a future.
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MadTaz (Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:00 pm)
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by SprintRX8 »

I also think Carl is onto a winner here.
UK Rotary Specialist with years of knowledge.
Good quality kit with backing if needed.

Now when you start looking at the true capacity of a rotary.
And why they ingest so much Air.

Funny how the early 13Bs where classed as 2600cc (The 12As 2300) but the near identical engine in a RX8 also a 13B is 1300cc.
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MadTaz (Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:00 pm)
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by MadTaz »

Frostorm wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:34 am
Heh, I'm actually not Brett. But I got the link from his thread... Btw, why the decision to go with IWG instead of EWG? Can't wait to see how this turns out...5 weeks can't come fast enough haha.
It sounds like you have some wisdom to pass on with regards to IWG turbos, please do not stand on ceremony here.
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by MadTaz »

WildMan10 wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:38 am
Where did you get the design from and what is it made of?
Where did I get the design from?

It was designed in-house, as all our products are :)

Its made from SS304, a two piece billet design, to make manufacturing not only easier but there will be some economies of scale when compared to tubular systems.
Mani_Prototype_5.jpg
Mani_Prototype_2.jpg
A rather elegant design, and the best we could achieve in terms of flow for the limited space we have. (although looks a fair bit nicer than some of the log solutions I've seen, could pass for OEM with some black ceramic coating).
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by obakemono »

Pardon my French but that's [edited] beautiful. I live in Aberdeen and when I get the cash (after my wedding) my car is going to Ryan rotary to get turbocharged!
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by 350matt »

MadTaz wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:02 pm
Frostorm wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:34 am
Heh, I'm actually not Brett. But I got the link from his thread... Btw, why the decision to go with IWG instead of EWG? Can't wait to see how this turns out...5 weeks can't come fast enough haha.
It sounds like you have some wisdom to pass on with regards to IWG turbos, please do not stand on ceremony here.
I'd say the reasons to go with an external wastegate is twofold
1 it helps with packaging around the turbo as IWG turbos are more bulky and you can remote mount the wastegate away from the turbo and the exit flange can be smaller and also use a Vee flange
2 the performance / flow path through the turbine is better as the turbine exit is smoother (although the gains in doing this are small) plus you can route the wastegate exit pipe back in post turbine a long way down the pipe where the gas flow is slower and impose less back pressure on the whole system

however an EWG will always be more expensive as there's more parts, more pipework and more work to install

I await the results with interest Carl
seems odd its taken this long for someone to grasp the nettle to produce a kit to be honest
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by SprintRX8 »

MadTaz wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:08 pm
WildMan10 wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:38 am
Where did you get the design from and what is it made of?
Where did I get the design from?

It was designed in-house, as all our products are :)

Its made from SS304, a two piece billet design, to make manufacturing not only easier but there will be some economies of scale when compared to tubular systems.

Mani_Prototype_5.jpg
Mani_Prototype_2.jpg

A rather elegant design, and the best we could achieve in terms of flow for the limited space we have. (although looks a fair bit nicer than some of the log solutions I've seen, could pass for OEM with some black ceramic coating).

DieselPump UK have a similar billet style manifold for there Mercedes OM range Diesel engine’s with a Choice of Turbos.
Sadly the manifolds are not suitable for are Rotarys.
https://www.dieselpumpuk.com/shop/manif ... -t3-or-t4/
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by MadTaz »

SprintRX8 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:21 am
DieselPump UK have a similar billet style manifold for there Mercedes OM range Diesel engine’s with a Choice of Turbos.
Sadly the manifolds are not suitable for are Rotarys.
https://www.dieselpumpuk.com/shop/manif ... -t3-or-t4/
Lovely looking bit of kit that!! Nice! 8)
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by MadTaz »

And here sat against the engine. :)
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by AndyBrad »

That looks nice. Forgive my ignorance but why doesnt it lean out the lhs bit as your forcing air in?
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by NEAS »

Such a tease. Where’s the rest. 🤤
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by 350matt »

AndyBrad wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:07 pm
That looks nice. Forgive my ignorance but why doesnt it lean out the lhs bit as your forcing air in?
I think you're getting confused between exhaust and inlet chap

this is the exhaust manifold so its all coming out of the engine
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by AndyBrad »

Ah sorry.
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by Frostorm »

MadTaz wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:02 pm
Frostorm wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:34 am
Heh, I'm actually not Brett. But I got the link from his thread... Btw, why the decision to go with IWG instead of EWG? Can't wait to see how this turns out...5 weeks can't come fast enough haha.
It sounds like you have some wisdom to pass on with regards to IWG turbos, please do not stand on ceremony here.
I was simply already planning on a custom setup using an XR6564S before I saw your kit. Don't listen to the people trying to get you to change to a different/cheaper turbo, btw. Xona's UHF turbos are a great fit for the Renesis, imo. I hope to see a significant reduction in EMAP, although I was worried if going with an internal WG might diminish whatever gains we might see from the reduced backpressure. I strongly recommend going with an XR5757S as the absolute smallest turbo choice btw, which should still offer a very quick spool. Keep in mind, the upgrade from non-UHF to UHF alone is already a 40% reduction in MOI on the turbine side. The turbine 1 size below that (the "51S") just seems too restrictive. Time will tell tho, so best of luck!

P.S. If your tests go well, will you offer your kit w/ an XR6564S by any chance? That would be my turbo of choice, but I had planned on going EWG.
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by WildMan10 »

New Duke wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:10 pm
I really hope they can find a way to do it for £5-6k and it still be worth their while.
For a 13B REW single turbo conversion By the time you’ve paid for the engine, had it overhauled, got it fitted with lots of bespoke parts eg manifold, ancillaries inc controller, gauges etc (the RHD steering column rules out the US kits & components), got an exhaust, modified the ancillaries eg aircon, got wider wheels then you are looking at double that. As a quick check, when I tot up what I got from selling the components that I had (from the appalling conversion I bought and the bits I bought in to sort it), with no labour cost other than specialist welding of the bespoke exhaust manifold I get at least £10,000 plus non-engine modifications (wheels, tyres, brakes, suspension etc) of over £2,000.

I don’t see the benefit of twin turbos here. Technology has moved on and space is limited. I don’t know of any FD twin turbo conversions and AFAIK the stock 13B REW twin turbo won’t fit an RHD RX8 even if you were so inclined. That said, I’d be delighted to see Carl succeed.
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by MadTaz »

Frostorm wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:36 pm
I was simply already planning on a custom setup using an XR6564S before I saw your kit. Don't listen to the people trying to get you to change to a different/cheaper turbo, btw. Xona's UHF turbos are a great fit for the Renesis, imo. I hope to see a significant reduction in EMAP, although I was worried if going with an internal WG might diminish whatever gains we might see from the reduced backpressure. I strongly recommend going with an XR5757S as the absolute smallest turbo choice btw, which should still offer a very quick spool. Keep in mind, the upgrade from non-UHF to UHF alone is already a 40% reduction in MOI on the turbine side. The turbine 1 size below that (the "51S") just seems too restrictive. Time will tell tho, so best of luck!

P.S. If your tests go well, will you offer your kit w/ an XR6564S by any chance? That would be my turbo of choice, but I had planned on going EWG.
Thank you, yes the Xona range is a nice range, I'll be offering the kit with 3 options, although I could supply with any X2C turbo as they are all dimensionally the same, to me it does not really matter, but the 3 below will be the 3 I'm getting data from.

X2C XR7864S
X2C-XR6564S
X2C-XR5451S

They'll all be internally wastegated which means the AR is 0.8, yes this will increase backpressure up top but the plumbing of the kit will be neater and less expensive. There are some pluses too, faster spool to mention one, if you have a huge AR say 1.03 like another kit out there then you will not get on boost to over 3K RPMS and not hit target boost until 4K rpms, this is not what I want for my turbo, yes the lower back pressure is good for the dyno queens and getting that 400WHP but loosing the responsiveness down low is something I'm not willing to compromise on. That smaller turbo will be on boost by 2K rpms and give a redline of c8K rpms, that's a pretty nice wide band right there.

Always an upside and downside of any kit/combination, it just depends what your goals are? What are your goals?
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by MadTaz »

WildMan10 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:01 pm
I don’t see the benefit of twin turbos here. Technology has moved on and space is limited. I don’t know of any FD twin turbo conversions and AFAIK the stock 13B REW twin turbo won’t fit an RHD RX8 even if you were so inclined. That said, I’d be delighted to see Carl succeed.
The twin turbo project is for my personal project and not something I will be replicating as it will be silly expensive, I just want to, for the benefits of the engineering package have a sequential turbo kit.

There are massive benefits to twin turbo set ups, the reason why single turbo is so popular is due to the simplicity of them and cost, not the benefit they give.
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by warpc0il »

Is the 4-port engine a better basis for FI than the 6-port?
The plumbing should be simpler.
The rear bearing can be upgraded to the 6-port spec.
The max revs you're talking about is within 4-port territory.
The 5-speed 'box is stronger and could be a better bet in terms of ratios, for the torque curve.
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by qwakers »

the biggest problem i have with turbo (and sc) conversions is the reduced redline, which i feel takes away the main pleasure of driving a 8.

would you be willing to r@d a bigger turbo, with slightly later spool up (i see no advantage on track of boost under 3krpm) that produces boost up to a 9-10k redline?

(gets wallet ready....)

plus, how about a turbo'd Periperal port engine...... :D
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by mrspiller »

qwakers wrote:the biggest problem i have with turbo (and sc) conversions is the reduced redline, which i feel takes away the main pleasure of driving a 8.

would you be willing to r@d a bigger turbo, with slightly later spool up (i see no advantage on track of boost under 3krpm) that produces boost up to a 9-10k redline?

(gets wallet ready....)

plus, how about a turbo'd Periperal port engine...... :D
No doubt the RRP will be different but the greddy kit I have just ain’t built for track cars .
It’s too close to the footwell and is known after 2 session to burn the sole of your shoe .
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Re: Turbo kit

Post by MadTaz »

warpc0il wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:37 pm
Is the 4-port engine a better basis for FI than the 6-port?
The plumbing should be simpler.
The rear bearing can be upgraded to the 6-port spec.
The max revs you're talking about is within 4-port territory.
The 5-speed 'box is stronger and could be a better bet in terms of ratios, for the torque curve.
The 4 Port is no better Dave, from experience with the Supercharger of keeping the APV closed vs open, I gained approx 35WHP from the APV, it appears within the turbo application its usually more efficient to open too.

Not sure about the box, you're probably right. :thumright:
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