Low emission E10 fuel

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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by warpc0il »

Our 500cc single MTD was made in 1984 and wasn't even designed to run on unleaded.

Doesn't seem to mind what I throw in it.

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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by New Duke »

warpc0il wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:27 am
Doesn't seem to mind what I throw in it.
In the fuel tank I hope you mean! :lol:
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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by Delanor »

Well in my case my Gennie is 10 years old, chainsaw 7 years old, hedge trimmer 5 years old, lawn mower 1 year old and some are OK with E10 some are not but they all will be OK with super unleaded.

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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by Delanor »

Also compatibility to run E10 applies to OE only so if you have changed parts then that may not apply and apparently the GOV check list is not that accurate either in its list of makes suitability.

I checked with Draper if E10 will affect my 1 year old lawn mower - they have no answer they will have to do more detail checks - apparently!

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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by warpc0il »

In most cases the engine internals are not bothered by E10 and the engine itself would run with no problem at all.

This applies to most car and van engines and especially mower and chainsaw motors, which are at a very low state of tune.

The issues arise with the fuel storage and delivery system. The tank, taps, filters, filter housings, carburettors, seals, hoses, etc.

My 1968 Alfa Romeos 1750cc Twin Cam wouldn't really like E10 as the octane is a bit low, which can be compensated for with Octane Booster.
However, everything in that list above, apart from the tank itself, has a problem, plus the filler neck pipe and the level sensor, have been identified as being susceptible to damage by ethanol; causing blockages and fuel leaks.

In most cases the damage wouldn't be immediate and may only appear after a long exposure. A new part, such as a pipe, seal or filter, may be much more resistant than an old part that's been happily doing it's job for 5, 10, 15 or more years, and then gets soaked with ethanol fuel.

This is the problem with both our bikes, my Honda VFR750FR and Pauline's Kawasaki GPz500s, both of 1994 vintage, and our 1999 Skoda Octavia and the 2002 3.7 V6 Jeep....

This is why it gets so complicated for manufacturers to say whether their products are okay or not.
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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by New Duke »

My brother has a Rover 75, so he isn't getting a response from his manufacturer either.

Not that it really sways things. As I posted earlier if my hypothesis is correct, that the lower mileage given by E10 actually cancels out any cost savings, then I don't see any reason to use E10.

E10 costs about the same as Super to do the same journey on average (can cost more or a bit less depending on local fuel pricing and different cars). It doesn't work with everything, and you'll need to fill up a bit more often. So why would anyone use it? Unless in some places Super isn't available or crazy expensive (it's about 5-10p more in my area depending on the fuel station), then fair enough. But otherwise am I missing something?
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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by warpc0il »

New Duke wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:14 am
So why would anyone use it? Unless in some places Super isn't available or crazy expensive (it's about 5-10p more in my area depending on the fuel station), then fair enough. But otherwise am I missing something?
This is the concern.

For example, Shell doesn't exist in NI and Tesco stopped selling Momentum 99 here 7 years ago.

Initially Tesco said this it was due to low sales and lack of demand but they since admitted that they can't source the fuel here to resell as Momentum.
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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by Honkytonk »

Filled the Vectra with her first tank of supermarket E10 (at 1.33/l - how do they get away with diluting it by 5% and still charging more...) today, so we'll see how she handles it. I'm getting give or take 40mpg at the moment on an average tank so we'll see how we do.
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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by New Duke »

warpc0il wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:24 am
New Duke wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:14 am
So why would anyone use it? Unless in some places Super isn't available or crazy expensive (it's about 5-10p more in my area depending on the fuel station), then fair enough. But otherwise am I missing something?
This is the concern.

For example, Shell doesn't exist in NI and Tesco stopped selling Momentum 99 here 7 years ago.

Initially Tesco said this it was due to low sales and lack of demand but they since admitted that they can't source the fuel here to resell as Momentum.
It upsets me deeply to witness how NI is treated as a consumer market and as a political territory Dave. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for you locals.
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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by DrewR3 »

Glad I have diesels and run V-power or Momentum in the R3 anyway.

As they demonise diesels, they change the petrol alternative to something that will return less mpg and cost even more to run. Come 2029 in december i think diesel sales will hit an all time high......
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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by xamtex »

i just put my pz back on the road this month and filled up for the first time yesterday at asda with E10 and me and my mate went to skegness to watch the stock car racing,the car ran perfectly and when i got back it had done 265 miles and i still have a quarter of a tank left so its not done my fuel consumption much harm.
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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by ChrisHolmes »

LOL! At first I wondered how you had filled up with £10 and got as far as Skegness!!!!!
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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by 350matt »

thing is with the rexi its so poor on fuel consumption anyway ( I get 22mpg on average) so a 5% loss would be 1.1 mpg less which is a bit tricky to spot unless you do a few tank to tank fills and work it out that way

on a car that does 40mpg you'll lose 2 mpg so again not easy to spot

so as New Duke says you may as well fill up with Super as the mpg delta will pay for the increased cost plus its better for the engine too

on a modern turbo charged engine then use super all the time now I'd say , as it 'should' work out cheaper with the ignition timing adjustment
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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by Honkytonk »

Filled up the car again with 50L today (of E5 as the village garage is still selling it's last tank of that), and I'd done...

Image


415 in 50L, so 38mpg. That's within the ball park of normal for daily driving to and from work and the supermarket.
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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by ChrisHolmes »

V Power is now £1.55 per litre eeek!
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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by PaulAV »

I've seen many supermarkets with notices up saying the switch to E10 will happen in September
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Low emission E10 fuel

Post by GreySilver Beast »

This doesn't bother me as the GT86 is always run on Super Unleaded =D> =D> =D> =D>
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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by v-rex »

Was forced to use E10 yesterday as the shell petrol station I found on the way back from Cardiff had no V-power E-5. Car felt pretty good on the way back and I can't say I noticed any difference. Still, will probably be getting V-Power when I fill up next but a semi useful experiment for myself to see how E10 does is the car.
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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by ChrisHolmes »

V Power formulation has also just changed with improved friction reducing additives.
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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by 350matt »

V-power still remains the best fuel you can buy at the pumps, we even run race engines on it when you can't get the proper ping pong tiddly stuff

but on my E10 findings, running it in the rexi has increased fuel consumption to 21.2mpg from 22.5 mpg ( I have an aftermarket fuel computer) and on the mini ( turbocharged petrol) that fares a lot worse as its 40mpg on V power that drops to 36 mpg on E10
so they've put the price up ( or guvmint has I don't know) and they've watered it down so a double whammy for the likes of Mr shell plus we're now using more of it......

so the price delta between Shell E10 and Vpower is about 13% (1.55 vs 1.35/ltr) so on the mini my cost per mile is 3% worse to run it on Vpower ( and get more power of course) however its only 6% better fuel consumption on the rexi for Vpower so its fuel cost is 7% more on Vpower so little to no difference in cost in running either and probably not a big power advantage either

I need to invetigate using Carls 98 RON map to see if I can claw back that 4% ....
it does run better / smoother on Vpower though
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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by PaulAV »

I watched a YouTube video the other day, you can, if you want, remove the ethanol, purely by putting it in a container with demineralised water and agitating it, then showing it to settle out, the ethanol mixes with the water and you then syphon the water off, leaving basically pure petrol, you than just need to add some octane booster to compensate for the ethanol loss. It's not cheap as you obviously loose a percentage of your fuel(in the form of ethanol)
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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by New Duke »

350matt wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:58 pm
so the price delta between Shell E10 and Vpower is about 13% (1.55 vs 1.35/ltr)
Crikey that's a big price difference in the grades. V Power is 15p more than E10 at my 2 local Shells. I guess local price variations make E10 more or less attractive.

Momentum at my local Tesco is 8p more than their E10. So the close price makes E10 even less appealing.
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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by HarSc »

Since my (somewhat) local Tesco that does momentum has decided to shut for now as they've dug up their forecourt (presumably to replace tanks), i've had to go to the morrisons, their normal 95/E10 is at 129.7 last I was there and the 97/E5 was 136.7. Usually the momentum was the same or 1p difference from that morrisons, so yeah. To me i'll keep up with the momentum at my local place when it reopens. Can't deal with the 150.9 that the Vpower normally is, that's like lobbing money on the fire to me - tooooo big a price jump :shock:
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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by warpc0il »

We get to dodge the bullet for a year, here in NI.

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Re: Low emission E10 fuel

Post by ChrisHolmes »

warpc0il wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:33 pm
We get to dodge the bullet for a year, here in NI.

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