I have an idea.... Let's hope it's a good one.

[Milos_Balunovic]

(yes I've been watching Mollie and Mac with the kids)

I was reading about the electric superchargers on another thread when Dave jokingly mentioned registering it as a hybrid.

This got me thinking why couldn't you make the 8 an actual hybrid and I jokingly suggested some golf cart hub motors.

I did a little digging and some mainstream manufacturers have been actually using in wheel motors for their electric hybrids notably Mitsubishi. (Though they now seem to have moved away so I guess the cons outweigh the pros)
My thoughts are this would give instantaneous low down grunt and help all the way to high speed
Depending on the battery and charging it would help with fuel consumption as could probably get away without using the engine power to much in traffic etc
Downsides I see are the weight increases particularly unsprung

Anyway this is the type of thing in talking about though this one replaced the whole hub, brake disk and braking system...
https://www.proteanelectric.com/technology/

[delta0]

You also need something to react that hub motor against so a lot of structure needed to mount it to the car. Otherwise the wheels will just rip themselves off the car when you first use it.

[Nickp47]

Put that song in my head now

[bigpete8]

You also need something to react that hub motor against so a lot of structure needed to mount it to the car. Otherwise the wheels will just rip themselves off the car when you first use it.

Assuming you could find a kit that would just bolt to the existing front wheel hub (and for simplicity assume brakes and everything else could be left untouched)
What is the issue, the suspension is already there to support the wheel, in all its rotational forms. I can see we would now be applying a driving force that wasnt there before but we aren't talking massive power.

[delta0]

You also need something to react that hub motor against so a lot of structure needed to mount it to the car. Otherwise the wheels will just rip themselves off the car when you first use it.

Assuming you could find a kit that would just bolt to the existing front wheel hub (and for simplicity assume brakes and everything else could be left untouched)
What is the issue, the suspension is already there to support the wheel, in all its rotational forms. I can see we would now be applying a driving force that wasnt there before but we aren't talking massive power.

Aside from braking there aren’t many rotating loads in the suspension. The load direction is the opposite from braking and obviously not what the suspension was designed for (the wishbones are not symmetric for example). It enters unknown territory for fatigue or buckling of the suspension. If the load can be kept low then this could be managed carefully.

[doobedoobedo]

I think the un-sprung weight (as already mentioned) would destroy the nature of the car, even if you didn't rip the wheels off.

What about a gearbox swap to Lexus ls450h?

[bigpete8]

You also need something to react that hub motor against so a lot of structure needed to mount it to the car. Otherwise the wheels will just rip themselves off the car when you first use it.

Assuming you could find a kit that would just bolt to the existing front wheel hub (and for simplicity assume brakes and everything else could be left untouched)
What is the issue, the suspension is already there to support the wheel, in all its rotational forms. I can see we would now be applying a driving force that wasnt there before but we aren't talking massive power.

Aside from braking there aren’t many rotating loads in the suspension. The load direction is the opposite from braking and obviously not what the suspension was designed for (the wishbones are not symmetric for example). It enters unknown territory for fatigue or buckling of the suspension. If the load can be kept low then this could be managed carefully.

If this was a major concern then it wouldn't be inconceivable to fit to rear....

[bigpete8]

The one I have linked to is just one example I have seen that someone was trying to do a kit that fitted leaving breaking etc untouched I would imagine that was much lighter.

[delta0]

Assuming you could find a kit that would just bolt to the existing front wheel hub (and for simplicity assume brakes and everything else could be left untouched)
What is the issue, the suspension is already there to support the wheel, in all its rotational forms. I can see we would now be applying a driving force that wasnt there before but we aren't talking massive power.

Aside from braking there aren’t many rotating loads in the suspension. The load direction is the opposite from braking and obviously not what the suspension was designed for (the wishbones are not symmetric for example). It enters unknown territory for fatigue or buckling of the suspension. If the load can be kept low then this could be managed carefully.

If this was a major concern then it wouldn't be inconceivable to fit to rear....

That would also be worse as the suspension is designed for less rotational load at the rear. The driving force comes from the drive shaft and doesn’t react about the suspension. Again only the braking force and that is much less on the rear so it is designed for less rotational loads.

[bigpete8]

So 100 extra horses and better fuel economy for $12k

[manuRx8]

And nobody thought about using soft hybridization with the Rx8?
Instead of electric turbos or wheel motors to improve response and consumption when the accelerator is pressed. Wouldn't it be possible to change the alternator for another that can optionally also act as an engine?
Adding a simple electronic control and an auxiliary battery could help the thermal engine when it accelerates (the moment when the engine consumes the most) and even force recharging on holdings or when braking.
Possibly we would have to modify the way the belt hugs the pulleys and perhaps the tensioner, but the changes would be much less than with any of the other alternatives mentioned.
In fact it is the hybridization technique that almost all manufacturers are now applying, when they want to improve a conventional car without major changes.

[bigpete8]

Not a bad idea. Have you seen any available?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 1SY1a7U34o

[manuRx8]

I have not seen commercial kits. If I have seen people who modify a classic alternator to work as an engine and adding an electronic (commercial) control and a 12v battery, it operates a kind of stroller or scooter.
It would be relatively easy to modify the alternator so that it can be switched between the motor mode and the generator mode through an external circuit (electronics or relays).
Of course, making the complete kit, by hand, would be possible but would require some work and research (although I think it would be easier than installing a turbo and less invasive)

[warpc0il]

The old "Bullnose" Morris Oxford and many others of the same era used to have a Dyna-start unit, made by Lucas, acting as both the starter motor and generator.

Funny how things come full circle, after a 100 years...

[delta0]

So 100 extra horses and better fuel economy for $12k

That it is awesome!

[bigpete8]

Prices are a bit cheaper than he quoted on video
https://orbisdriven.com/our-technology/
5k for 2

[Juey]

...and you can install it yourself at home in an hour he says.
It takes me 2 hours to hang up some Xmas lights. I believe this may be a little more complicated.

Some questions:
How long to the drive wheels last (the 3/6 that drive the wheel)?
How well does it perform if the wheel is dirty?
Could it fit on a rwd car - if not can you fit it to the front wheels?

But overall I love it.

Biggest question is, will Rotary Revs or RRP stock it first?

[bigpete8]

I'd assume it's no different fitting to front, if unsprung weight claims are true only downside is the battery weight.

[Juey]

Surely better to fit to the rear wheels of a fwd car.
Rear brakes don't do much vs front and you'd lose the normal front brakes.

Power delivery through the front whilst turning??

[bigpete8]

Doubt it's any different to any other fwd car trying to steer and deliver power at the same time.
Probably less problematic when you are also driving the rears as well.
some clever electrickery to keep things in check in any event maybe...

The brakes are described in the video as needing less material due to their design.
Don't forget you'll also get some regenerative braking as well

[warpc0il]

FWD cars have a front differential, to allow the inside wheel to rotate slower than the outside around corners.

Does this system have an electronic equivalent? Without it you'll be understeering like crazy.

[bigpete8]

According to website and think he mentioned it in video...
"Torque vectoring facilitates more finely-tuned control in turning, pivot (rotate within the vehicle’s own dimensions), and re-orientation, all at reduced cost, weight, and complexity."

And all that according to a quick Wikipedia search means...
"Torque vectoring is a technology employed in automobile differentials. A differential transfers engine torque to the wheels. Torque vectoring technology provides the differential with the ability to vary the torque to each wheel. This method of power transfer has recently become popular in all-wheel drive vehicles."

[350matt]

interesting that he's thinking there's enough of a market for this
from a technical viewpoint its a great idea
the torque vectoring though isn't trivial and needs to be spot on to get the car handling safely
typically the likes of BMW take over a year on this sort of tuning

[bigpete8]

I would imagine it's simpler when the electronics has control of the wheel as an individual piece. Able to reduce/ increase power or even brake via regenerative braking.
Just needs some brain behind it to work it all!

How that plays with the cars exististing Stability programs will be the interesting bit

[bigpete8]

Slightly different vid on FB page.