Opinions on Dry Sump Pricing

[mzivtins]

Hello everyone,

What would someone expect to pay for:

Mazda speed style dry sump for a 20b

OR

External peterson pump style dry sump with scavenge plate to fit.

The only pricing i have seen is around $5000 online, this includes the peterson pump, but something tells me this as a lead price, and very rarely true?

Thanks for any help!

[warpc0il]

Why dry sump?

The biggest advantage of dry-sumping a piston engine is to avoid drag from the sump oil coming into contact with the crankshaft.
There is no equivalent in a rotary engine.

The only reasons I can see would be to reduce the overall height for a low-profile installation, or to increase ground clearance e.g. for autocross racing over very rough surfaces.

[mzivtins]

Packaging + all the reasons why dry sumps are good

why not dry sump a rotary?

[mzivtins]

What would be a genuine middle-ground solution? If any exist at all?

[Conan]

I would like to dry sump an RX-8 at some point.
I’m a little nervous of lapping any quicker with the existing set up.
We made our own dry sump system for a TVR Cerbera many years ago, pace supplied the pump because they had done one for a GT racer in the Netherlands, we cut and shut the existing alloy sump pan and put in the bosses. With oil tank and lines it probably cost me around 2K in total in those days.
I would use an external pump but have a look at the pace ones.
Regards
Pete

PS : I don’t believe there is any middle ground

[mzivtins]

I would use an external pump but have a look at the pace ones.

PS : I don’t believe there is any middle ground

Wow they are neat, no belts needed by the looks of things? getting that on a front cover would be nice and compact like the mazda speed style kits.

The mazda renesis used for racing in the U.S all have dry sumps, i thought this would allow for more availability :/

[warpc0il]

My question wasn't meant as a challenge, I just wanted to understand your reasons.

[Conan]

I don’t think anyone took it as a challenge Dave
I thought you were just checking the application to see if it was necessary or not
The pace pump does need to be belt driven but they are world renowned and do an excellent product.
I did consider the USA version as well.
Perhaps a few people could get together for a few.
Pete

[RenesisRaceBuggy]

You could probably knock a kit up from a Pace pump etc, for ~£1500 or so

[Phil Bate]

What would be a genuine middle-ground solution? If any exist at all?

If it's starvation you're mainly concerned with, what about an accumulator like this?

[Clive]

With my piston racers, yes I had to have dry sump systems, but it's maybe worth knowing that I don't use use a dry sump with the race car, after much development, stopping the oil coming up the filer tube and engine breathing management has been the key.

Engines now on 42 races with 520BHP, so I can say now a dry sump system is not really needed.

[PeteH]

Just to add. I've been pm'ing the OP, since we are both doing similar things. The problem is unique to the 20B, and is a packaging issue. The 20B oil pickup is right where the RX-8 steering rack wants to be. There are various possible solutions, but one way to solve the issue is to adopt a "flat" dry sump. Personally, I'm not going dry sump, because I have a slightly different solution. I have discussed this with the OP, and will let everyone know if / when it works.

Just thought it might help to explain the 20B issue in a bit more detail.

[mzivtins]

Just to add. I've been pm'ing the OP, since we are both doing similar things. The problem is unique to the 20B, and is a packaging issue. The 20B oil pickup is right where the RX-8 steering rack wants to be. There are various possible solutions, but one way to solve the issue is to adopt a "flat" dry sump. Personally, I'm not going dry sump, because I have a slightly different solution. I have discussed this with the OP, and will let everyone know if / when it works.

Just thought it might help to explain the 20B issue in a bit more detail.

You will be my hero

For info if anyone wants to know, I've had some quotes:

• Chips Motorspots have a full mazdaspeed style kit, with the billet rear oil manifold they are selling it for just under $6000 (this is all brand new and lots of billet)

• GarageReg quoted over £6000 just for the mazdaspeed front cover, so the flat plate would be around another £1000, and then a nice AN style oil manifold

• Built 2 apex have three options. MazdaSpeed style kit, external side pump style and his new own pump that he will debut at SEMA this year. Waiting on prices.

• Billet Rotary. A new design is in the works which they are waiting to prototype

I was very surprised at the cost from chips motorsport in the U.S, i am willing to pay whatever it takes to get this to work, and coming in at $6000 for parts is really good, i've saved over £8k on this build so far through blind luck, so its a real consideration for me IF it completely resolves the packaging issues...

[warpc0il]

Now I understand that the motivation is unique to the fitment and not really driven by the usual considerations.

I might be asking the obvious but if it's a clash between the sump and the rack, would an alternative rack arrangement, e.g. MX5 rack, be any easier?

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk

[PeteH]

The MX-5 NC rack would probably package, but it's hydraulic PAS (I don't think the NC ever came as a manual rack), and I don't fancy trying to retro-fit a hydraulic PAS system into an 8. Earlier MX-5s had manual racks, but they don't fit. There are some kits to put BMW racks into RX-8s, but they are also hydraulic PAS, and are really designed for LS swaps.

I'm not aware of any manual rack that easily fits. Of course, it would be possible to do a bespoke manual rack solution, but that would be more work than a dry sump, and could easily affect the great steering and handling characteristics of the RX-8.

It would also be possible to turn the RX-8 rack into a manual (as Clive has done), then make a bespoke smaller rack body. But I don't think that fixes the clearance issues, and is a huge amount of work.

(There are no easy or cheap solutions to get a 20B into an RX-8... I think both the OP and myself are doing this with our eyes open to the difficulties)

[mzivtins]

The MX-5 NC rack would probably package, but it's hydraulic PAS (I don't think the NC ever came as a manual rack), and I don't fancy trying to retro-fit a hydraulic PAS system into an 8. Earlier MX-5s had manual racks, but they don't fit. There are some kits to put BMW racks into RX-8s, but they are also hydraulic PAS, and are really designed for LS swaps.

I'm not aware of any manual rack that easily fits. Of course, it would be possible to do a bespoke manual rack solution, but that would be more work than a dry sump, and could easily affect the great steering and handling characteristics of the RX-8.

It would also be possible to turn the RX-8 rack into a manual (as Clive has done), then make a bespoke smaller rack body. But I don't think that fixes the clearance issues, and is a huge amount of work.

(There are no easy or cheap solutions to get a 20B into an RX-8... I think both the OP and myself are doing this with our eyes open to the difficulties)

Chips motorsport have said they do a fully non assisted rack that could be made with the 20b in mind. my worry is disturbing the steering feel of the 8, as mine is a road car, if I go non power assisted it means the girlfriend cant drive it, which is a real consideration when the other car is going to be an exige, two cars with no power steering would be a bit much I think?

[Phil Bate]

If an MX-5 rack happens to fit how about powering it with an electric pump, like a Mini for example? This could live wherever there is space

[mzivtins]

I think if I was doing to work, and could do the work i'd consider something like an mx5 rack (lots more options for aftermarket isn't there?) for now i'm just waiting to hear back from RR if they think the mazdaspeed style with the flat plate will work, it could be worth the $6000 if it buys simplicity and removing the headache.

The real bonus would be that if its a YES from RR then by Friday this week, things will be settled in to move forward which would be a nice little milestone

[mzivtins]

I jumped the gun and went with Chips motorsport, he has one near completion and the price was the cheapest anyone had quoted for a full kit including the oil manifold, all billet too.

here's an older picture of their design (its just a billet replica of the mazda speed style, although with improvements for clearance)


newer picture


The price was $6080 excluding shipping, a far cry from the £6000+ for the front cover only

I will get pictures when it arrives

[Ollie]

Good luck on the customs tax on that! Ooft.

[bigpete8]

Obviously it is a gift

[mzivtins]

Jesus that is frightening, will see if he can mark it as a gift or sponsorship items with 0 cost haha, or at least mark the price down by half lol

[bigpete8]

Not something I have had much experience of and if the group buy on Compression testers from Oz was anything to go by its a bit random...

But this website claims to calculate it for you...

https://www.simplyduty.com/import-calculator/

[mzivtins]

I think it'll be hard to avoid, even with the huge import tax I'm flying under budget, until I get wheels... As I bet they will have a hefty charge, unless I can find te37 ultra m specs in the UK... Man this country SUCKS for specialist car stuff, I blame everyone's fascination with German cars haha

[RenesisRaceBuggy]

Could you not just have modded the original sump and then winged it to get the capacity back?