How to improve Ignition

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How to improve Ignition

Post by Dentist »

Since the argue over ignition is most of times mislead to marketing stuff I will introduce you with few alternative
solutions.

Part one


Basics :
The ignition coil as the name suggested is consisted of wire coils, primary and secondary wires.
Primary is short and thick whereas the secondary is long and thin, If we magnetise primary with 14V 5Amp and cut the currant
the secondary will charge with ~20,000 30,000V and very low Amp.
This day all of the coils are dry, back in day they were wet and cooled with oil.

To charge the primary coil we need switch as physically breaker point( contact breaker points palatine) or electrically(driver) power transistor or mosfet.

These days engines we are using coils which including the drive it self, in other world the ECU doesn't have the drivers inside of it,
before introduction of the coil on plugs we had Double ignition coils which consists of a classic coil design BUT the both ends of secondaries
terminated to spark plugs, where as in classic arrangement the one side connected to primary near negative terminal.

Image
smaple of 4 MOSFET unites/ driver/ modules I used in my M10 project to drive coils


One is using of the Double ignition coils, instate of connecting each end of secondly to a plug, we can connect both ends to a plug,
so we double energy which goes through a plug.

Image


Other is using BMW coil on plugs, they are cheap and easy to source, google :Bosch ignition coil 0221504470 around £16 each.
The tip can be remove easily and attaching spark leads.
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by warpc0il »

The primary challenges that face the Renesis ignition system relate to duty cycle and charge time (dwell angle).

As a forum guest, you don't have access to the 70% of the forum content that it restricted to members-only, this includes the Technical library and a huge amount of debate on this a many other subjects.

https://www.rx8ownersclub.co.uk/members ... Select.php
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by Dentist »

warpc0il wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:06 pm
The primary challenges that face the Renesis ignition system relate to duty cycle and charge time (dwell angle).

As a forum guest, you don't have access to the 70% of the forum content that it restricted to members-only, this includes the Technical library and a huge amount of debate on this a many other subjects.

https://www.rx8ownersclub.co.uk/members ... Select.php
In my personal believe the knowledge should be in access of every member.
I had few experimental back in day with Megasquirt to push a single coil to a round 17000 rpm as 4 stroke engine,
a roter on 9000rpm = 9000*3= 27,000 cycles !!! it's not even 1 stroke engine its 1/3 stroke :D dwell angle is going to be very low too... good capacitors are must.
in my tests most of cases the drive failed till I used upgraded mosfet and coil failed.
there are ways to make coils cooler, as temperature will reduce efficiency and life of coils. I will talk about them later on cause
one part is producing energy and other part serving it.
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by Dr. FrankenRex »

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding this, but in your opening post you said "use BMW coils as they're cheap and easy to source" but then in your second post you pointed out that in your tests the drive failed, and then once you upgraded the mosfet the coil failed?

This isn't marketing, it's just a fact, that the current RRP coils don't require separate mosfet, don't require butchering of another coil that would lose warranty and are capable of the duty cycles required by a rotary engine up at max RPM (mine is running them with a 10k rev limit).

Happy to discuss coils, as I'm sure lots of people on here are to a degree, but it's understanding what you're planning on achieving.

Also: Knowledge is available to every member. Currently you're a forum guest :) Sadly the club can't run itself.
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by PeteH »

Dentist wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:42 pm
I had few experimental back in day with Megasquirt to push a single coil to a round 17000 rpm as 4 stroke engine,
a roter on 9000rpm = 9000*3= 27,000 cycles !!! it's not even 1 stroke engine its 1/3 stroke :D dwell angle is going to be very low too... good capacitors are must.
17000rpm on a 4 stroke engine is equivalent (in terms of coil duty cycle) to just 8500rpm in a rotary. We all do that almost every day. some of us (me included) run our engines up to 10000rpm. We need serious coils for this. That's why there are very few coils that this forum will recommend.

Your sum is wrong. A rotary doesn't fire three times per rev. Each rotor fires once per e-shaft rev. 9000rpm means 9000 coil fires per minute per rotor, so each of the Renesis coils fires 9000 times per minute at max revs.

All these sums, technical discussions, and testing exist on the forum. Join up and you will be able to see it. Non-members would always like to be access all the information on the forum (of course), but it's not going to happen. Contribute by joining and you will see all the history and information available.
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by acegeezer »

Join the club properly as a member, as you are relating to a "rotary" and get into the tech section.. the rotary manuals and bulletins have all the info you need. I don't understand the reason for your post as a guest if we gave out all the goodies freely, there would be no members at all now would there ;) :-k
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by geofftl1000r »

Motorcycles used the wasted spark method for decades so the number of times a coil was expected to fire must have been very close to (or above) that required for a rotor.
The ignition system on an RX8 was designed some time ago now and there must be better systems around. I don't see the point of reinventing the wheel on an RX8 though but happy to have a listen.
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by goodeggbob »

what is it that is so incendiary about coil discussions, i am happy to just take advice and get on with it, this wouldn't be the first disagreement,even in my short membership.
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by Dentist »

Dr. FrankenRex wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:04 am
Sorry if I'm misunderstanding this, but in your opening post you said "use BMW coils as they're cheap and easy to source" but then in your second post you pointed out that in your tests the drive failed, and then once you upgraded the mosfet the coil failed?

This isn't marketing, it's just a fact, that the current RRP coils don't require separate mosfet, don't require butchering of another coil that would lose warranty and are capable of the duty cycles required by a rotary engine up at max RPM (mine is running them with a 10k rev limit).

Happy to discuss coils, as I'm sure lots of people on here are to a degree, but it's understanding what you're planning on achieving.

Also: Knowledge is available to every member. Currently you're a forum guest :) Sadly the club can't run itself.
Part one
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by Dentist »

PeteH wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:29 am
Dentist wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:42 pm
I had few experimental back in day with Megasquirt to push a single coil to a round 17000 rpm as 4 stroke engine,
a roter on 9000rpm = 9000*3= 27,000 cycles !!! it's not even 1 stroke engine its 1/3 stroke :D dwell angle is going to be very low too... good capacitors are must.
. Non-members would always like to be access all the information on the forum (of course), but it's not going to happen. Contribute by joining and you will see all the history and information available.
Nice try but wrong approach, actually you have to pay me to talk about secrets :d
considering the open source all over internet and loads of info in American and other English speaking countries why should even think to pay
to be "member of club" :lol:

Anyway, 99,9 of the info are prescription, they are not even explanation nor displanation [-X
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by Dentist »

goodeggbob wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:57 pm
what is it that is so incendiary about coil discussions, i am happy to just take advice and get on with it, this wouldn't be the first disagreement,even in my short membership.
part two coming soon
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by Dentist »

It is funny how the club members and other colourful member rush to topic of a gust.
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by kopite72 »

I'm on nights tonight,hang on a sec and let me grab some popcorn!!
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by Dazza44 »

Coils, coils, bloody coils, u ain't going to get any better then either mazda c, or RRP, no matter how much u mess around with them u ain't going to get any super power gains and that's that, RRP coils All ready offer lifetime warranty on his so when or if they fail he will replace them,
What more is to gain ..??

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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by Dr. FrankenRex »

Well, you sound cryptically irksome.

My point currently stands based on what you've said. Also, the effort versus reward conversation needs to be had - there is an adequate product out there for 95% of applications and then the AEM coils for those who feel they might be in the 5%...

Have you met a guy called Robin? :-P
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by Eddie_r32 »

Robin is that you? :p
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by kopite72 »

:giggle:
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Mods so far..
BBR 200 PACKAGE
COBRA " RACE " BACK BOX
MEISTER COILOVERS
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RACING BEAT ARB's ( FRONT AND REAR )
IL MOTORSPORTS STRUT BRACE AND ADJUSTABLE
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WILWOOD 6 POT BBK
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ATOTO HEAD UNIT
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by acegeezer »

Well, somebody needs to pull up the red carpet here, roll it up and put it away Einstein has left the building :lol: =D>
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by Dentist »

loll to all
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by Dentist »

Actually you know what ? I wont be bothering to write other parts.
keep your popcorn with double juicy cream in jgentleman club lolll
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by AndyBrad »

shame.
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by Juey »



meets
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by Ryan Rotary Performance »

Juey wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:32 am


meets

Brilliant! Made me chuckle, not seen that in ages!
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by acegeezer »

Phew, I thought war and peace had taken a turn for the worse ;)
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Re: How to improve Ignition

Post by geofftl1000r »

PeteH wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:29 am
Dentist wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:42 pm
I had few experimental back in day with Megasquirt to push a single coil to a round 17000 rpm as 4 stroke engine,
a roter on 9000rpm = 9000*3= 27,000 cycles !!! it's not even 1 stroke engine its 1/3 stroke :D dwell angle is going to be very low too... good capacitors are must.
17000rpm on a 4 stroke engine is equivalent (in terms of coil duty cycle) to just 8500rpm in a rotary. We all do that almost every day. some of us (me included) run our engines up to 10000rpm. We need serious coils for this. That's why there are very few coils that this forum will recommend.

Your sum is wrong. A rotary doesn't fire three times per rev. Each rotor fires once per e-shaft rev. 9000rpm means 9000 coil fires per minute per rotor, so each of the Renesis coils fires 9000 times per minute at max revs.

All these sums, technical discussions, and testing exist on the forum. Join up and you will be able to see it. Non-members would always like to be access all the information on the forum (of course), but it's not going to happen. Contribute by joining and you will see all the history and information available.

A 4 cylinder engine with a single coil, points and a distributor would need to fire 2 times per revolution (every 180 degrees). So even a crappy old Mini A series coil would need to fire 10,000 times at 5000 rpm?
An old V8 every 90 degrees so 20,000 times at 5000 rpm?
I can't see this being correct if it is so difficult to make a coil that can fire 9000 times at 9000rpm. :-k :study:
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