Identifying/loosening alignment fixing nuts and bolts

[New Duke]

Am booked in with FW Motorsport to have my geometry done next week and would like to loosen the fixings beforehand given it's a long journey. Getting there and one being seized would be a pain.

Is it the adjustment bolts themselves that tend to seize? Or just the locknuts? I wasn't planning on moving the adjustment cam bolts for fear that I'd move them massively out of alignment or break them. But if it's the bolts themselves that get stuck that would be good to know and I'll have a go. They'll be re-aligned next week anyway.

I've looked through the workshop manual, can anyone confirm if these are the correct nuts to work on and if there's anything else I'd need to unseize?

Front:

Tie rod end locknut/bolt (This looks like it fixes to the bottom of the damper, and as I've just had new suspension fitted am hoping this bolt should be fine unless I've read the diagram wrong)
Camber cam bolt locknut/bolt
Caster cam bolt locknut/bolt

Fergus said it would help to check the steering adjustment isn't seized. Am I right that's the same one mentioned above on the bottom of the tie rod end?

Rear:

Camber cam locknut/bolt (the infamous one?)
Toe in lock nut/bolt

Anything I've missed? Plan is to plusgas them all once located, leave an hour, then crack them. Then re-tighten to the correct torque values. The toe and camber were last adjusted 2 years ago and the PZ suspension fitted last week, so am hoping those factors work in my favour.

[Alan.h]

its the bolts that sieze in the bushes. so plus gas etc, will have limited effect

[PeteH]

It's the bolts that seize. The nuts usually come off fairly easily. The bolts need to be free to be able to do the adjustment.

My suggested process is:
- Wire brush the loose rust off the bolt threads (it's amazing the difference this simple step makes)
- Firmly (but without damaging the threads) tap all the bolts and nuts with a hammer. The idea is to shock the rust free.
- Drown the nut and bolt in Plus Gas (or whatever). Make sure you squirt it everywhere, including down the sides of the bush. Then leave it for at least a couple of days. Reapply after a day, if you can.
- Give them a quick clean, with a squirt of brake cleaner. Then use Tipex or a paint marker to mark across the eccentric washer and the subframe. This is your alignment setting, for when you tighten everything up again.
- I take the nuts off next, although some people leave them partially on to protect the bolt threads. Then get a spanner on the bolts and see if they spin.
- If they do, happy days. Realign the bolt/eccentric washer. Put the nuts back on, torque up.
- If they don't then my preferred method is to put a piece of sacrificial wood over the bolt thread, then smash it with a lump hammer! Do this while also applying as much torque as you think the bush can stand (usually about 30 degrees of bush rotation is fine).
- If they are really stuck the last thing to try is to squirt Plusgas up the slot in the bolt. There is a slot down the bolt thread, which is what the eccentric washer keys into. It's the reason water gets up the bolt thread and causes the bolt to rust into the bush in the first place. But you can use this slot to your advantage to get Plusgas right into the bolt thread and bush

Your descriptions of the locations are fine, except the tie rod end attaches to the suspension upright (the large casting), not the damper. The tie rod will not have been disturbed when your PZ suspension was done, so expect the tie rod threads to be as rusty as a rusty thing. And yes, the steering adjustment just means make sure the track rods are free and can be adjusted.

Good luck.

[ChrisHolmes]

Fergus is a clever so and so and has a good blend of knowledge and brute force so you should be OK especially after following Petes "technical" tips above!

[New Duke]

Thanks a lot Pete. Really appreciate the detailed advice.

Fergus is a clever so and so and has a good blend of knowledge and brute force so you should be OK especially after following Petes "technical" tips above!

I made sure to tell Fergus that you've recommended him Chris

[auditt235]

Ahhh the dreaded front camber and castor bolts...I've tried all the stuff Pete suggested, even had trouble getting the nuts off! So I am ready to give up. I'm a bit long in the tooth to carry on bashing away on the drive, so anyone got some advice on a garage to go to in the Midlands (I am based in Worcester) in oreder to remove the rusted bolts and replace them? I think I am likley to need new bushes and combolts before this is done? Funnily enough the rears were no problem at all?? Thanks in advance. John

[xamtex]

just a random thought...might not be possible but can you loosen the nut and get a jack under it and jack up to put the weight of the car on the nut...then apply the lump hammer?

[geofftl1000r]

sure you can, from experience all that will do is jack the car up

[warpc0il]

Tried this and so nearly had the car off the axle stands - well dodgy

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk

[geofftl1000r]

sure you can, from experience all that will do is jack the car up

Had the car like this for a week. Would lower it twice a day and get an air hammer on the bolt for 15 minutes. After a week I bought one of the Milwaukee saws and cut the thing off. Took maybe 10-15 minutes.
Luckily I was not in a hurry

[auditt235]

Guys you are filling me with so much confidence! Plan now is to put it back on the road with suspension pointing all over the place and try and find a local garage with heat and a BIGGER hammer...however, keep the ideas rolling...

[auditt235]

Has anyone got any idea if the US cars had different lower links? I see that you can get thenm over there for about $170 a side?

[warpc0il]

It depends on whether they had Mazda "Standard" or "Sports" suspension

"Sports" suspension was an option on the 231 6-speed manual, but "Standard" was/is much more common.

Your car will have "Sports" assuming it's an official UK-spec.

[ChrisHolmes]

Guys you are filling me with so much confidence! Plan now is to put it back on the road with suspension pointing all over the place and try and find a local garage with heat and a BIGGER hammer...however, keep the ideas rolling...

Heat is unlikely to be the answer as the seized bolt is insulated by the thick rubber of the suspension bush which melts when the bolt and bush it is seized into heat up and then you have a nasty loose lump that you cannot get at.
Your two methods really are to either saw off the bolt at the top and bottom between the bush and the subframe, which is not easy, or drill the bolt out which again is not easy as you are drilling upwards and need to drill for around 4”. Mazda dealer have destroyed subframes trying to remove upper arms which are an easier job.
The “ultimate” method is to drop the subframe out and then you can get directly at the top of the bolt to drill down until the head comes off and the cut the lower section off and drill out that bolt till it’s flush.
If you have a garage do the work expect a large bill just for time and then over £50 for new bolts etc!

[auditt235]

Thanks Chris - will have a closer look tomorrow. Learned a bit about hand drilling bolts out with a previous Alfa!!

By the way are the hub ball joints normally easy to crack? Another job tomorrow.

Cheers

John

[xamtex]

where in the midlands are you john?

[ChrisHolmes]

I think John is in Worcester. The hub ball joints generally crack easily enough, lump hammer one side for weight and tap with a hammer opposite or use a conventional wedge / lever ball joint splitter If your posh!

[Leck3000]

This thread is making me very nervous as i need to get fergus to do my geometry soon.

[Begall]

This thread is making me very nervous as i need to get fergus to do my geometry soon.

It’s definitely possible for the majority of the bolts to be seized and if that’s the case (i.e not just 1-2) then there’s not much he can do

I know because that’s how it went for me

[Leck3000]

This thread is making me very nervous as i need to get fergus to do my geometry soon.

It’s definitely possible for the majority of the bolts to be seized and if that’s the case (i.e not just 1-2) then there’s not much he can do

I know because that’s how it went for me

He has forewarned me about the likelihood. I am fitting coilovers and so he suggested trying the bolts at the time to see if any are going to cause me some trouble but I am getting more and more nervous about it. I was going to replace all the arms and bolts which meant this wouldn't be an issue as such but i am now considering shelving this idea for now.

[ChrisHolmes]

Test each bolt and no doubt the nuts will loosen but adjusting bolts will be solid, if they do move and then stop that could be because the adjuster cam has reached the limit of travel in the yolk so need turning the other way. If the bolt moves both ways then it’s happy days. The drivers side will be the worst as that side is dried out by the heat from the exhaust causing worse rusting than on the passenger side. Give all the bolts a regular dose of PlusGas for about a month before embarking on the testing.

[New Duke]

I'd suggest Innotec Deblock as well. It's more expensive but I've had better results with it. You can use it and PlusGas together.

[Leck3000]

Ok so i just googled Plusgas as i have seen a few mentions now. One can ordered and with F&R brakes to be refit next week (Calipers, discs, pads & hoses) it will be a good opportunity to get an initial spray done as i want to get the coilovers on soon.

[Leck3000]

I'd suggest Innotec Deblock as well. It's more expensive but I've had better results with it. You can use it and PlusGas together.

Thanks, I think we deal with Innotec so i will see if I can get it from them direct in a small quantity. May as well crack this walnut with a massive f*****g hammer.

This is the exact reason I hate working on road cars. Race cars are so much easier.

[Ollie]

Innotec also do a freeze type solution which when I had my car aligned the guy doing it used over heating just due to time constraints/nothing else moves due to heat. Possibly worth getting that too to help shock any rust off along with plusgas/whatever else.