Help me make sense of wheel settings - alignment, camber etc.

[13Black]

But yeah, toe out at the rear is pretty much always a no-no, as you found out.

Hell, I drive sideways on purpose and I'm still toe-ing in at the rear.

[V8 Power]

With cotton and a ruler it was probably 1 mm

Yes Pete I believe you are correct. 1mm not 1deg! My bad.

[ninjarrr]

Thanks for the tips and discussion here folks. Seems that it's probably fine for now - if I get a chance to take it to FW, I will do that. How much does he charge? And why don't they have an address on their website?! I've worked out he's based in Oxfordshire somewhere, that's it.

Re the printout I had it's from a run of the mill all-cars type of garage. They didn't even charge for the test (only to make changes) as I was getting new tyres from them at the time.

[ninjarrr]

I wouldn't fiddle with those numbers. The only thing outside spec is the front toe, and I'd rather it was set as it is than adjust it to Mazda's number.

Comparatively there's a big difference between left front and right front camber - that doesn't seem right to me to have cambers off on the same axle?

[13Black]

You are aware that it's in degrees and minutes aren't you?
60 minutes to a degree. So basically 1 degree each, +/-7 minutes.

Yeah you want them pretty equal if you're paying for it but it's not a mile out.

[ninjarrr]

You are aware that it's in degrees and minutes aren't you?
60 minutes to a degree. So basically 1 degree each, +/-7 minutes.

Yeah you want them pretty equal if you're paying for it but it's not a mile out.

Yes - I'm just going by the relative difference being much larger than the differences between rear camber or any of the toe readings on the same axle.

Help me out with the maths though - shouldnt the difference in -53 minutes and -1deg 06 minutes be 13 minutes, not 1 degree +/- 7 minutes?

[13Black]

The toe readings need to be a bit more precise than the rest. I'd rather my car be setup with the toe where I want it at the expense of camber wandering slightly - rather than the other way around.

Yes 13 minutes total difference, hence 7 minutes plus and minus, from - 1'00" degree as an average value. Its not suddenly going to fling you off the road unprovoked at that.
If you can get it all setup better then by all means do. FW I'm sure will do a great job.

Be aware that if your front LCA recall needs to be done, get that sorted first.

[PeteH]

I'm leaving 13Black to it, because he's bored and (meant to be) doing tax returns. But basically about everything.

Half a degree of camber is a small number. If you were going to re-adjust then you could get them closer but, unless you are a racer, this kind of left-to-right difference is absolutely fine. F1 cars are only adjusted in quarter degree increments.....

The reason Mazda quote wide limits is because they really don't want to be adjusting things unnecessarily. If the car gets to the end of the production line and needs adjusting then it's an extra operation, which costs time and money. Similarly, if the geometry drifts out of specification during the warranty period then the dealer would have to do a full geometry check and adjust, which costs time and money. A wide tolerance band avoids these costs. Mazda think the car is just about OK at the limits of the tolerance. But that doesn't mean the car is as good as it can be. A good car setup, done by a person that knows what they are doing, can make the most of your car's handling. The geometry of my race car isn't within Mazda's tolerances (at all), but it's set up for optimum track performance. I wouldn't use my geometry on the road, because the steering is heavy, and the tyre wear would be very wrong on the road. I set my car up with string and spirit levels. But you do have to know what you're doing....

[13Black]

No, pls Pete. Take over.

I don't have a fancy colour username so no one ever believes what I'll have to say about anything

I've finished my taxes now as well.
Go geddum tiger.

[PeteH]

We keep offering you a fancy coloured name badge, but you keep refusing....

[13Black]

Oh well if that's one of the perks then sign me upppppp.

Eat a bag of Doritos, Graham - that treasurer position is mine.
[ initiates smear campaign, Phase 1/13 ]

[ChrisHolmes]

Thanks for the tips and discussion here folks. Seems that it's probably fine for now - if I get a chance to take it to FW, I will do that. How much does he charge? And why don't they have an address on their website?! I've worked out he's based in Oxfordshire somewhere, that's it.

Re the printout I had it's from a run of the mill all-cars type of garage. They didn't even charge for the test (only to make changes) as I was getting new tyres from them at the time.

Fergus is located in Swerford, Oxfordshire OX7 4BD and charges around £150 subject to everything that needs loosening nor being rusted solid.

[SeriousSam]

I had my setup done by TDI in Thurrock, cost me £200 and was some of the best money I've spent on the car. Similar to the experiences with Fergus, they asked how I used the car and what's been done to it, then set the suspension up around that. My settings are within the Mazda Sports tolerances, but taken to the most negative extreme on the camber settings. I'd have to check the paperwork to know the exact figures, but they work well for me.

I also hear good things of Wheels In Motion, they're known as a good suspension setup place. One thing to know though, is that the adjustment bolts will need to be free before you try to get the setup done. My local guys can do full laser alignment, but the first time they tried to do the front camber, they bent two spanners trying to crack those bolts, it wasn't happening. The extra labour required to free up and lubricate the adjusters can end up costing as much as the setup if you're not careful, so make sure everything can be adjusted before you go booking an expensive alignment session.

[GreySilver Beast]

Oh well if that's one of the perks then sign me upppppp.

I keep offering you a position Nick

[13Black]

ONE LAST GRAPH I PROMISE


This is the rear camber with the upper and lower tolerances added in grey.
So yh... I don't think I'd trust anyone to set my car up if they're using this junk as a bloody guide. I'd rather someone actually knew what they were doing and understands how cars work rather than a "all da boxes are greeeen, I like following orders" KwikFit monkey.

RearMaxMin.PNG

[13Black]

pwooooomise

Long tiem no upd9 any joy finding the printout Ian, just out of interest?

[New Duke]

I'm not going to make two tax deadlines myself today. So meh, may as well embrace the fines and forum surf.

I was going to get my alignment done by the local Hunter laser alignment place soon, before the next batch of track days. Mine is clearly out, let alone set up the way I'd like. But reading this it just doesn't seem worth it unless I go to a suspension specialist like TDI?

Which means paying about 200 quid, which means waiting until I've got the new PZ suspension fitted (cos adjusting it twice in one year at that price or more isn't going to happen), which means probably not getting around to it and putting up with it as it is. Ughhhhhh.

Are these very broad tolerances an industry standard and the same with all cars? Or is this a specific RX8/Mazda thing? I want to get our XF tweaked, but if it's likely the same scenario then I'll reconsider and put up with it.

[Harrizone]

All car makers have a broad tolerance in alignment to meet all tastes and probably the known state our roads are in. Would'nt bother with the XF and sensible to wait until the PZ suspension goes on the 8 . Certainly didn't find the tracking alignment that bad around Snetterton although I baulked at taking Coram at 98 mph (indicated) , but only because it was your car and not my own .

[New Duke]

Run a least a couple of tankfulls of fuel through after fitting the PZ suspension before you get the alignment checked/adjusted as they will settle.

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk

[Neilparry]

The geometry of my race car isn't within Mazda's tolerances (at all), but it's set up for optimum track performance. I wouldn't use my geometry on the road, because the steering is heavy, and the tyre wear would be very wrong on the road. I set my car up with string and spirit levels. But you do have to know what you're doing....[/quote]

Hi Pete
Would you be happy to share your settings with us wannabe trackday heroes, all of which I should imagine aspire to all your achievements

Neil


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PeteH]

Ha ha. Flattery will get you everywhere!

It's complicated.....

Firstly, I have Japspeed rear arms and Superpro adjustable bushes, so I can set more radical geometry than is possible with OEM bits.

I set my front camber to the maximum I could get, which was about -2.25deg. This isn't as extreme as some people use, but the reason is that I run my car higher than many other racers. The reason for that is that I can't use radical aero because of the category I race in. I reduced one side so that both sides were as close to each other as possible.

On the rear I went for about -2deg. I wanted to keep it close to the front camber, and I chose the value that worked with the roll angle of my car (which is much less than most other RX8s.). I have used this much rear camber because of the lack of power. When I set it up for the 20B I will be using less camber.

Front toe is about -0.1deg (so toe out) each side. Rear is about +0.1deg (so toe in) each side. But remember that I have less compliance than most RX8s, so if you have OEM bushes you won't necessarily want these values.

Finally, I have castor adjustable bushes, and my castor is set up to be huge! I haven't measured the actual value, because I just wanted it to be as big as it can be. It may even be asymmetric (although it doesn't feel like it is).

You can see that there is a lot to consider, and a "one size fits all" answer isn't the right approach.

[Neilparry]

Cheers Pete
I thought it might have been a closely guarded secret judging by the success you’ve had.
Yes your right you can’t get close to those figures on standard oem parts.

Thanks for sharing

Neil


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[xamtex]

rx8 suspension 001.jpg

just took my pz to my the tyre company nuneaton for a check after fitting the new suspension...
this is the result....

[Ainmhidh]

I know little to nothing of the wizardry involved in alignment, but just comparing the numbers I presume they didn't change anything, and working on the theory that green is good, there were no obvious things needing changed (from whatever the provided specs were) ?

[Neilparry]

rx8 suspension 001.jpg

just took my pz to my the tyre company nuneaton for a check after fitting the new suspension...
this is the result....

Hope you didn’t get charged for that very minor adjustment????


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk