Hydrogen Powered RX-8

[delta0]

One day emissions laws and the general push against fossil fuel use is going to catch up with us (and all other combustion engines) however our engines a have trick hidden up their sleeve. They can be powered by hydrogen fuel with very little modification. As combustion occurs in a separate chamber from the much cooler intake it means the rotary engine can take hydrogen without it immediately detonating as soon as it goes into the engine. Mazda even made and sold a hydrogen RX-8 in Japan to prove it is possible. http://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/env/hre/

The obvious issue is there is no easy way to get hydrogen fuel but that could change in future.

[350matt]

we'll see everything going hybrid and it'll stay that way for a looong time

there's not the infrastructure or political will to eliminate fossil fuel

I'm considering how much effort it would be to make a starter motor / generator setup for the rex to be honest to give it some low down shove and ease the fuel bill a little

[delta0]

I’m aware there are some starter motor and battery setups available that can power the engine as well to give it a boost. It seems like an interesting solution.

[geofftl1000r]

Unless you have some kind of KERS in place, then the engine will have to recharge the battery via the alternator?
Wouldn't this extra load with all the loses involved kill any savings in fuel?

[warpc0il]

The PCM manages alternator load, so it tries to charge the battery only when there is power to spare.
However, the logic is quite complex and depends on the sensed battery state and the ambient temperature, as well as engine revs and load.

That said, few of these electrical boost systems are 12 Volt, due to the massive currents involved.
24V means half the current, for the same power, while 48V means half the current again, or double the power.

[Hopkins]

One day emissions laws and the general push against fossil fuel use is going to catch up with us (and all other combustion engines) however our engines a have trick hidden up their sleeve. They can be powered by hydrogen fuel with very little modification. As combustion occurs in a separate chamber from the much cooler intake it means the rotary engine can take hydrogen without it immediately detonating as soon as it goes into the engine. Mazda even made and sold a hydrogen RX-8 in Japan to prove it is possible. http://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/env/hre/

The obvious issue is there is no easy way to get hydrogen fuel but that could change in future.

By coincidence, what's-his-face on Engineering Explained just posted a video about it:

[delta0]

One day emissions laws and the general push against fossil fuel use is going to catch up with us (and all other combustion engines) however our engines a have trick hidden up their sleeve. They can be powered by hydrogen fuel with very little modification. As combustion occurs in a separate chamber from the much cooler intake it means the rotary engine can take hydrogen without it immediately detonating as soon as it goes into the engine. Mazda even made and sold a hydrogen RX-8 in Japan to prove it is possible. http://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/env/hre/

The obvious issue is there is no easy way to get hydrogen fuel but that could change in future.

By coincidence, what's-his-face on Engineering Explained just posted a video about it:

Great video. Lots of great info in there!

[New Duke]

we'll see everything going hybrid and it'll stay that way for a looong time

there's not the infrastructure or political will to eliminate fossil fuel

I'll be putting that to the test when I pick us this EV next week.

Changing my daily from a rotary to an EV. Might be a shock to the system!

That was an electricity joke...

[bigpete8]

They certainly seem quick at round town speeds (or the ones I have followed do)

But just couldn't live with something that could only do 200 miles before being topped up...

[goodeggbob]

i would prefer something with a longer range,so i bought an rx8.

[350matt]

we'll see everything going hybrid and it'll stay that way for a looong time

there's not the infrastructure or political will to eliminate fossil fuel

I'll be putting that to the test when I pick us this EV next week.

Changing my daily from a rotary to an EV. Might be a shock to the system!

That was an electricity joke...

Naturally a small percentage of the driving population can switch to 100% EV
most journeys are under 30 miles for most people and if they can also charge it at work then no bother at all

however a lot of folks park their car on the street or don't have a garage / drive
so there's no access to a plug socket overnight - so how do they charge their vehicles?

and there's not enough lithium in the world to switch the driving duties over to 100% EV - plus if you look where lithium mostly comes from its southern america, where they don't have the greatest record in human rights / child labour etc etc

so the IC engine will around a while yet and personally I'd like to see an adoption of the lean burn tech thats been in F1 and WSC for the last few years
full load at lambda 1.3? BSFC of sub 200gm/kw/hr? ( a good diesel is about 240 gm / kw/hr)

admittedly a lot of NOx to deal with but thats not beyond the wit of man

[warpc0il]

Ford put huge investment into lean burn technology but got railroaded when the cat converter lobby pushed through emissions legislation that could only work with cats, even though they require even more fuel to work.

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk

[350matt]

the time is ripe for another crack at it I feel

[delta0]

we'll see everything going hybrid and it'll stay that way for a looong time

there's not the infrastructure or political will to eliminate fossil fuel

I'll be putting that to the test when I pick us this EV next week.

Changing my daily from a rotary to an EV. Might be a shock to the system!

That was an electricity joke...

Naturally a small percentage of the driving population can switch to 100% EV
most journeys are under 30 miles for most people and if they can also charge it at work then no bother at all

however a lot of folks park their car on the street or don't have a garage / drive
so there's no access to a plug socket overnight - so how do they charge their vehicles?

and there's not enough lithium in the world to switch the driving duties over to 100% EV - plus if you look where lithium mostly comes from its southern america, where they don't have the greatest record in human rights / child labour etc etc

so the IC engine will around a while yet and personally I'd like to see an adoption of the lean burn tech thats been in F1 and WSC for the last few years
full load at lambda 1.3? BSFC of sub 200gm/kw/hr? ( a good diesel is about 240 gm / kw/hr)

admittedly a lot of NOx to deal with but thats not beyond the wit of man

Ironically cities where it is needed the most have the greatest challenges with electric charging point installations. Street parking and private car parking spaces being the most common. It makes it difficult to get these systems installed and no one wants to pay for these unless they are forced to eventually.

As for NOx and lean burn I’m sure there are ways around it. Just need to cool things down. Perhaps a bit of water injection or go extra lean where NOx falls again.

[GreySilver Beast]

Good on you Haydn

I too am researching EV modes of transport at the moment as a replacement to the GT86 in due course

[Essex2Visuvesi]

My other half's brother has one of those Renault Zoe things.
Not bad, quite an eerie sensation to drive

[untakenname]

With the LEZ in London becoming more draconian (£12.50 per day for pre 2016 diesels) the jaguar I-Pace looks quite tempting at £400 per month.
Luckily I get the train to work so my RX8 is only used at weekends and is compliant with the pollution charges so I'm going to keep it for a while.
I don't think now is the time to get an electric car as it's still in early adoptor phase and there's no unified charging standards yet, quick chargers can put out upto 350KW but not many cars can even handle a 100kw charge.
I've noticed lots of aggrieved sole EV users at my train station as the charging slots are usually filled with PHEV's which then park in them all day.

[GreySilver Beast]

They are trying to stop PHEV Owners from using the Charging Points as they can use their Engines to power the Vehicles until they can get home to recharge

Anyway now that PHEV's no longer qualify for a Grant from the Government, then there will be probably less New PHEV Cars coming to the UK

[New Duke]

Ironically cities where it is needed the most have the greatest challenges with electric charging point installations. Street parking and private car parking spaces being the most common. It makes it difficult to get these systems installed and no one wants to pay for these unless they are forced to eventually.

Even for those of us with garages and plentiful off road parking. There's also the significant cost of having the domestic electric system upgraded. Charging a 41kw Zoe battery from empty on a standard domestic 13A plug takes about 25 hours. So upgrading that circuit is a must. But even installing a basic 7kw charger in my garage will cost a few hundred quid for the socket, plus the electrician, plus the added complication of running new, thicker core cable under 50 metres of garden without disturbing the lawn (a command from Mrs New Duke). Want even faster charging at home? That's mega bucks.

But, the base rental cost of an EV is now very low. And if you do have access to free charge points then the fuel costs are zero.

Even though the infrastructure sucks at the minute, at least it exists and is growing. Lean burn/hydrogen etc sound great in theory and on YT. But I need real, affordable alternatives that are available today. And as EE alluded to, hydrogen (as you'll find listed elsewhere) has it's own drawbacks. I'll do anything to avoid getting on the c̶a̶t̶t̶l̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶ train.

My commute is 120 miles round trip and even the new battery Zoe only has a 125 mile range in winter (180 in summer), so I'm going full guinea pig. I'll detail the experience in a thread in the 'other car' section.

With the LEZ in London becoming more draconian...

At least the RX8 is exempt from the LEZ and the new ULEZ. Even though my mate's little 2015 'eco' diesel isn't. He was annoyed when he heard that.

They are trying to stop PHEV Owners from using the Charging Points as they can use their Engines to power the Vehicles until they can get home to recharge

I'm confident that before long parking any ICE vehicle in an EV charge bay will be illegal. Maybe they should include PHEVs in that too.

[GreySilver Beast]

There are also Grants available for Installing Charging Points at home plus in some cases the connection is already built into the price of the Electric Car when you buy it in the first place

Also in some cases you don't need to worry about the Installation ie planning permission as the Motor Company will take care of that for you, which is even better when you live in a block of Flats and have your own Parking Space to Install the Charger Point

Give it another 24 months and Wireless Charging will become reality for charging your Electric Car :

Sent from my ASUS_A001 using Tapatalk

[Lemon]

Wireless charging carrys it's own risk for people with things like pacemakers.

as i seem to be lucky enough to live within 30 miles of one of the few hydrogen filling stations in the UK (Honda Of the UK Manufacturing have one in Swindon) i would love to see hydrogen power becoming a much more adoptable system within the UK.

[geofftl1000r]

I've noticed lots of aggrieved sole EV users at my train station as the charging slots are usually filled with PHEV's which then park in them all day.

I would expect an EV driver to have charging point at home but someone who doesn't have that option, because they live in a flat etc. to use a PHEV. So it makes perfect sense for them to charge up at the station so they can use electric power for the daily commute to/from the station.
The whole idea of electric cars is to burn coal rather then oil as a car fuel after all. Much better for the planet?

[350matt]

I've noticed lots of aggrieved sole EV users at my train station as the charging slots are usually filled with PHEV's which then park in them all day.

I would expect an EV driver to have charging point at home but someone who doesn't have that option, because they live in a flat etc. to use a PHEV. So it makes perfect sense for them to charge up at the station so they can use electric power for the daily commute to/from the station.
The whole idea of electric cars is to burn coal rather then oil as a car fuel after all. Much better for the planet?

Finding accurate well to wheel figures that don't come from a source with obvious bias is tricky
some say the difference is about half ( in EV's favour) other says its about the same or even worse.

however the industry sources I've recently been exposed to show the current 'well to wheel' figures of energy used when you compare a 100% EV to a good petrol car ( non hybrid) are about 1% difference


so you can either burn coal in a power station and produce Co2 that way or burn oil at source
so there's not much in it at present plus we're not looking very closely at the environmental impact of Lithium mining, plus power stations tend not to have a big cataylst stuffed on top of the chimney and lets not too closely at jet engine emissions shall we......

I do think we should all be on EV for the daily schlep but equally we don't want to be caught up the latest level of 'greenwash' and a gentle introduction / phasing out of combustion engines is the most likely approach and even then the IC engine will still have some applications

[geofftl1000r]

Isn't it just "Let's make the pollution somewhere I care less about..."

[New Duke]

There are also Grants available for Installing Charging Points at home plus in some cases the connection is already built into the price of the Electric Car when you buy it in the first place

Also in some cases you don't need to worry about the Installation ie planning permission as the Motor Company will take care of that for you, which is even better when you live in a block of Flats and have your own Parking Space to Install the Charger Point

Give it another 24 months and Wireless Charging will become reality for charging your Electric Car :

Sent from my ASUS_A001 using Tapatalk

Absolutely Nigel. Although sadly those grants are only for EV buyers. They don't apply to long term rentals like I'll be doing. I gotta pay

I have to be honest that my own motivations for change were largely economic. To reduce my R3 mileage the cheapest possible/least committed way. That surprisingly turned out to be EV rental. Not an ICE option.