Bleeding Brake Problem
-
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 9053
- Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:56 pm
- RX-8: Turbo
- Colour: Nordic Green
- Location: cornwall
- Has thanked: 97 times
- Been thanked: 539 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
if you can get the car to me i will sort it for you. i will rob parts off my car until it works. i like a challenge and this promises to be a good one
-
- Club Member
- Posts: 4245
- Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:04 pm
- RX-8: 231
- Colour: Copper Red
- Location: Hengoed - South Wales
- Has thanked: 113 times
- Been thanked: 158 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
Good on youqwakers wrote:if you can get the car to me i will sort it for you. i will rob parts off my car until it works. i like a challenge and this promises to be a good one
Well done for offering
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
- Club Member
- Posts: 28283
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:04 pm
- Location: Cheltenham
- Has thanked: 2567 times
- Been thanked: 940 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
I cannot recall if you have had the master cylinder in pieces and fitted new seals? If so then dare I suggest you strip it down and make sure the seals are fitted correctly and not damaged. Once that is eliminated then start the bleeding process all over again.
Rotary History;
Sep 2005-Aug 2006 EO55 XOL VR 231 New
Oct 2014-Mar 2019 OE06 EWJ VR 231
Jan 2019-Jun 2020 T200 CAD Orange SC 231
Feb 2020-May 2023 RR54 AJR VR 231 Modified for Track
Oct 2020-Mar 2021 YA56 EUE Copper Red Nemesis
Jun 2022-Apr 2023 TN07 JHD KURO Resurrected
Jun 2023-Jan2024 OV09 BFF Sparkling Black R3
Avatar courtesy of my grandson Cameron
Sep 2005-Aug 2006 EO55 XOL VR 231 New
Oct 2014-Mar 2019 OE06 EWJ VR 231
Jan 2019-Jun 2020 T200 CAD Orange SC 231
Feb 2020-May 2023 RR54 AJR VR 231 Modified for Track
Oct 2020-Mar 2021 YA56 EUE Copper Red Nemesis
Jun 2022-Apr 2023 TN07 JHD KURO Resurrected
Jun 2023-Jan2024 OV09 BFF Sparkling Black R3
Avatar courtesy of my grandson Cameron
-
- Former Member
- Posts: 3153
- Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:32 pm
- RX-8: 231
- Colour: Aurora Blue Mica
- Location: Westbury Wilts
- Has thanked: 26 times
- Been thanked: 108 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
This is a weird fault, good on you Qwakers!
Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
231 streetported Rx8 renny powered Westfield kit race car. SOLD
92 Rx7 fd3s stock twins..est.320bhp. RETIRED Track car.
93 eunos s-sp 1.6 turbo gt2545r 226bhp track slag. in continuous development.
Scooby doo bugeye wagon wrx daily.
Mondeodog towcar.
Mx5 mk2 1.8 10ae nice day daily rust bucket.
92 Rx7 fd3s stock twins..est.320bhp. RETIRED Track car.
93 eunos s-sp 1.6 turbo gt2545r 226bhp track slag. in continuous development.
Scooby doo bugeye wagon wrx daily.
Mondeodog towcar.
Mx5 mk2 1.8 10ae nice day daily rust bucket.
-
- Club Member
- Posts: 28283
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:04 pm
- Location: Cheltenham
- Has thanked: 2567 times
- Been thanked: 940 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
Surely we have member nearer to Milton Keynes than Cornwall who can work on the car.
Rotary History;
Sep 2005-Aug 2006 EO55 XOL VR 231 New
Oct 2014-Mar 2019 OE06 EWJ VR 231
Jan 2019-Jun 2020 T200 CAD Orange SC 231
Feb 2020-May 2023 RR54 AJR VR 231 Modified for Track
Oct 2020-Mar 2021 YA56 EUE Copper Red Nemesis
Jun 2022-Apr 2023 TN07 JHD KURO Resurrected
Jun 2023-Jan2024 OV09 BFF Sparkling Black R3
Avatar courtesy of my grandson Cameron
Sep 2005-Aug 2006 EO55 XOL VR 231 New
Oct 2014-Mar 2019 OE06 EWJ VR 231
Jan 2019-Jun 2020 T200 CAD Orange SC 231
Feb 2020-May 2023 RR54 AJR VR 231 Modified for Track
Oct 2020-Mar 2021 YA56 EUE Copper Red Nemesis
Jun 2022-Apr 2023 TN07 JHD KURO Resurrected
Jun 2023-Jan2024 OV09 BFF Sparkling Black R3
Avatar courtesy of my grandson Cameron
-
- Spin Doctor
- Posts: 32538
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:56 pm
- RX-8: 231
- Colour: Lightning Yellow
- Location: Groomsport, Co Down, NI
- Has thanked: 444 times
- Been thanked: 2080 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
The only time I've come across a brake that would lock on, where it wasn't the caliper, was on an Astra that had had some previous front impact damage.
It was obvious that the track rod and a coupes of associated suspension parts had been replaced but the flexible brake hose hadn't.
Replacing that hose fixed the problem and when we cut the old hose apart we discovered that the inner lining was torn and created a flap, which was acting as a non-return valve.
Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk
It was obvious that the track rod and a coupes of associated suspension parts had been replaced but the flexible brake hose hadn't.
Replacing that hose fixed the problem and when we cut the old hose apart we discovered that the inner lining was torn and created a flap, which was acting as a non-return valve.
Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk
-
- Former Member
- Posts: 868
- Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:30 pm
- RX-8: 231
- Colour: Velocity Red
- Location: Cambs/Herts
- Has thanked: 2 times
- Been thanked: 9 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
I think we need a definition/description of "locking". I assumed locking-up...
Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk
Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk
-
- Former Member
- Posts: 1390
- Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 4:55 pm
- Has thanked: 49 times
- Been thanked: 20 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
This sounds like the ram in the master cylinder defective! Now bare with me and to be honest I've never taken car one to bits, but if the downwards stroke seal is worn or has a defect it would have this issue!
Robin
Robin
-
- Club Member
- Posts: 4245
- Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:04 pm
- RX-8: 231
- Colour: Copper Red
- Location: Hengoed - South Wales
- Has thanked: 113 times
- Been thanked: 158 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
I’m not quite clued up on the whole thread just the start , have you changed back to original bits except the bleed nipples and tried it ?
And you could get the new pressure tested In the meantime ?
What brand are currently used ?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And you could get the new pressure tested In the meantime ?
What brand are currently used ?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
- Club Member
- Posts: 615
- Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:31 pm
- RX-8: 40th Anniversary
- Colour: Metropolitan Grey
- Location: Redhill
- Has thanked: 75 times
- Been thanked: 34 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
40th Anniversary RX8
R3 Wheels: PZ Coilovers: RRP 'Red' Coils: RRP Engine mounts (softer ones): RRP COFS: RRP Blue Pulleys: Silicon hoses in blue: Goodridge brake lines: HEL clutch line: Racing Beat ARB's: SS Braided oil lines: Mishimoto radiator (oem fans)
R3 Wheels: PZ Coilovers: RRP 'Red' Coils: RRP Engine mounts (softer ones): RRP COFS: RRP Blue Pulleys: Silicon hoses in blue: Goodridge brake lines: HEL clutch line: Racing Beat ARB's: SS Braided oil lines: Mishimoto radiator (oem fans)
-
- Former Member
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:59 am
- Colour: Titanium Grey
- Location: Lampeter, Ceredigion
- Has thanked: 3 times
- Been thanked: 7 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
Something that liam22 said in another thread, I've never done it engine running but certainly something I will consider in future.....
Quote
"As I do this before every race meeting I have a couple tips:
1. Bleed with the engine running so that the ABS lines are open. Essential if you have any air in the system. Even if you don't, the flow rate is much increased and makes the whole job quicker.
2. Pump the brake pedal so that it is firm before and after bleeding each caliper. If you introduced any air then you immediately know which caliper to go back to......."
Also ....
Not sure if it is possible, but is it possible to blank off 3 of the calipers at the master and just try bleeding one (closest) caliper straight to the master?
Quote
"As I do this before every race meeting I have a couple tips:
1. Bleed with the engine running so that the ABS lines are open. Essential if you have any air in the system. Even if you don't, the flow rate is much increased and makes the whole job quicker.
2. Pump the brake pedal so that it is firm before and after bleeding each caliper. If you introduced any air then you immediately know which caliper to go back to......."
Also ....
Not sure if it is possible, but is it possible to blank off 3 of the calipers at the master and just try bleeding one (closest) caliper straight to the master?
-
- Former Member
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:51 pm
- RX-8: PZ
- Colour: Brilliant Black
- Location: Milton keynes
- Has thanked: 4 times
- Been thanked: 21 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
I've changed the master cylinder twice, i have three now including the original.
I've had the abs module tested and a new mechanical half fitted, the electrical side was fine.
The calipers were all stripped, cleaned, pins greased and fitted along with new pads, discs, new pins, bleed screws (fitted with a little plumbers tape) and braided brake lines.
The car has been bled by myself, my old man, a mechanic and at the Mazda dealership where i bought the car. It's had well over 5 litres of fluid through it.
The car was driven by the Mazda mechanic and myself (last night) and on initial braking the pedal goes to the floor but if you pump the pedal it goes hard but then quickly loses that pressure.
I've checked under the car myself as well as Mazda and we can't find any leaks anywhere.
When bleeding the brakes the fluid shoots out nice and quick so there's definitely good pressure, there's also no air bubbles coming out.
I've tried blocking off the master cylinders i have with the blanking screws that the Mazda mechanic gave me and put my foot on the brake and each time the pedal only goes down a little way and stops. I assume that means the MC's are ok?
I've also tried running the wheels while on stands and stamping on the brakes but that did nothing.
This is what i've tried so far and to be honest i am all out of ideas. Especially if both Mazda and a rotary specialist are both stumped.
I've had the abs module tested and a new mechanical half fitted, the electrical side was fine.
The calipers were all stripped, cleaned, pins greased and fitted along with new pads, discs, new pins, bleed screws (fitted with a little plumbers tape) and braided brake lines.
The car has been bled by myself, my old man, a mechanic and at the Mazda dealership where i bought the car. It's had well over 5 litres of fluid through it.
The car was driven by the Mazda mechanic and myself (last night) and on initial braking the pedal goes to the floor but if you pump the pedal it goes hard but then quickly loses that pressure.
I've checked under the car myself as well as Mazda and we can't find any leaks anywhere.
When bleeding the brakes the fluid shoots out nice and quick so there's definitely good pressure, there's also no air bubbles coming out.
I've tried blocking off the master cylinders i have with the blanking screws that the Mazda mechanic gave me and put my foot on the brake and each time the pedal only goes down a little way and stops. I assume that means the MC's are ok?
I've also tried running the wheels while on stands and stamping on the brakes but that did nothing.
This is what i've tried so far and to be honest i am all out of ideas. Especially if both Mazda and a rotary specialist are both stumped.
-
- Former Member
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:51 pm
- RX-8: PZ
- Colour: Brilliant Black
- Location: Milton keynes
- Has thanked: 4 times
- Been thanked: 21 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
I've been scouring the interwebs for a solution and i just read that the rear center brake light can have an effect on the ABS. The brake light was disconnected when i bought the car, actually the wiring was just cut, do you think this could cause a problem and what could could it knock out? I have already re-soldered the wires together and it lights up ok but that was before i tried bleeding the brakes.
-
- Former Member
- Posts: 868
- Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:30 pm
- RX-8: 231
- Colour: Velocity Red
- Location: Cambs/Herts
- Has thanked: 2 times
- Been thanked: 9 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
My car runs without centre brake light and I have no issues. ABS works as before.
Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk
Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk
-
- Spin Doctor
- Posts: 32538
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:56 pm
- RX-8: 231
- Colour: Lightning Yellow
- Location: Groomsport, Co Down, NI
- Has thanked: 444 times
- Been thanked: 2080 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
A short in the rear centre brake light, or an led replacement without a suitable resistor, can cause the abs to fail its self-test, which will result in the warning light remaining lit and the system being deactivated.
However, a deactivated abs just means that it can't release pressure when it detects a wheel lock.
That's should have no impact on filling or bleeding the system.
The reason for bleeding the system with the engine running is for vacuum power assistance, not abs.
However, a deactivated abs just means that it can't release pressure when it detects a wheel lock.
That's should have no impact on filling or bleeding the system.
The reason for bleeding the system with the engine running is for vacuum power assistance, not abs.
-
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 9053
- Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:56 pm
- RX-8: Turbo
- Colour: Nordic Green
- Location: cornwall
- Has thanked: 97 times
- Been thanked: 539 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
wedge the brake pedal down overninght and see of you get a pedal in the morning. youre looking for a fluid level drop. if you get any drop in the level you either have got rid of a ir lock or you have a leak somewhere.
you have two reasons as far as i can see for your current problem.
1) you have a leak. its possible one of the brake lines is porous or a seal in a replaced component is not doing its job. having left it wedged overnight you'll have a puddle to identify the leak
or
2) you have a stubborn airlock
if so, your problem will be suddenly gone...
you have two reasons as far as i can see for your current problem.
1) you have a leak. its possible one of the brake lines is porous or a seal in a replaced component is not doing its job. having left it wedged overnight you'll have a puddle to identify the leak
or
2) you have a stubborn airlock
if so, your problem will be suddenly gone...
-
- Club Member
- Posts: 4245
- Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:04 pm
- RX-8: 231
- Colour: Copper Red
- Location: Hengoed - South Wales
- Has thanked: 113 times
- Been thanked: 158 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
It has to be a fault with the changed components surely ?qwakers wrote:wedge the brake pedal down overninght and see of you get a pedal in the morning. youre looking for a fluid level drop. if you get any drop in the level you either have got rid of a ir lock or you have a leak somewhere.
you have two reasons as far as i can see for your current problem.
1) you have a leak. its possible one of the brake lines is porous or a seal in a replaced component is not doing its job. having left it wedged overnight you'll have a puddle to identify the leak
or
2) you have a stubborn airlock
if so, your problem will be suddenly gone...
I’ve think I’ve got a spare set of calipers and some ( not all ) brake pipes your welcome to try if you cover the postage
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 9053
- Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:56 pm
- RX-8: Turbo
- Colour: Nordic Green
- Location: cornwall
- Has thanked: 97 times
- Been thanked: 539 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
ive had rediculously stubborn air locks before. completely impossible to bleed, until i did what i mentioned.
Last edited by qwakers on Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Former Member
- Posts: 868
- Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:30 pm
- RX-8: 231
- Colour: Velocity Red
- Location: Cambs/Herts
- Has thanked: 2 times
- Been thanked: 9 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
Me too. The overnight wedge is a goodun. When this also failed, bleeding with engine running was the answer.qwakers wrote:ive had rediculously stubborn air locks before. completely imossibke to bleed, until i did what i mentioned.
So I disagree with warpcoil about it only being about servo.
Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk
-
- Club Member
- Posts: 28283
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:04 pm
- Location: Cheltenham
- Has thanked: 2567 times
- Been thanked: 940 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
Thinking outside the box and I have never done this but let's think about doing the bleeding backwards by disconnecting the brake pipes at the highest point and then at the lowest point and fitting a flexible pipe that has its upper end higher than the upper end of the brake pipe in a container that can gravity feed brake fluid through the pipe. Once the fluid appears at the top end refit that union and then disconnect the pipe from the lower end and refit the lower union. Repeat on all pipes.
Rotary History;
Sep 2005-Aug 2006 EO55 XOL VR 231 New
Oct 2014-Mar 2019 OE06 EWJ VR 231
Jan 2019-Jun 2020 T200 CAD Orange SC 231
Feb 2020-May 2023 RR54 AJR VR 231 Modified for Track
Oct 2020-Mar 2021 YA56 EUE Copper Red Nemesis
Jun 2022-Apr 2023 TN07 JHD KURO Resurrected
Jun 2023-Jan2024 OV09 BFF Sparkling Black R3
Avatar courtesy of my grandson Cameron
Sep 2005-Aug 2006 EO55 XOL VR 231 New
Oct 2014-Mar 2019 OE06 EWJ VR 231
Jan 2019-Jun 2020 T200 CAD Orange SC 231
Feb 2020-May 2023 RR54 AJR VR 231 Modified for Track
Oct 2020-Mar 2021 YA56 EUE Copper Red Nemesis
Jun 2022-Apr 2023 TN07 JHD KURO Resurrected
Jun 2023-Jan2024 OV09 BFF Sparkling Black R3
Avatar courtesy of my grandson Cameron
-
- Club Member
- Posts: 615
- Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:31 pm
- RX-8: 40th Anniversary
- Colour: Metropolitan Grey
- Location: Redhill
- Has thanked: 75 times
- Been thanked: 34 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
It doesn't take any pressure to get a good stream of fluid shooting out of an open nipple. You could get the same by putting some (none poisonous) fluid in a plastic tube and blowing into the tube, so that's like 1 psi. Probably not enough to bring a car to a halt.
We all know that fluid cannot be compressed. So it must be going somewhere. If it's not leaking (the reservoir would be going down) then there must be somewhere for the fluid to push into under pressure (ABS module?) or the master cylinder simply isn't building or holding pressure.
I have found in the past when bleeding callipers after a rebuild it's best to make sure the pistons are all fully pushed in to displace as much air as possible before trying to fill with fluid by bleeding.
Hope you get this sorted soon. I should be free next weekend if you want an extra pair of hands/fresh pair of eyes?
We all know that fluid cannot be compressed. So it must be going somewhere. If it's not leaking (the reservoir would be going down) then there must be somewhere for the fluid to push into under pressure (ABS module?) or the master cylinder simply isn't building or holding pressure.
I have found in the past when bleeding callipers after a rebuild it's best to make sure the pistons are all fully pushed in to displace as much air as possible before trying to fill with fluid by bleeding.
Hope you get this sorted soon. I should be free next weekend if you want an extra pair of hands/fresh pair of eyes?
- These users thanked the author geofftl1000r for the post:
- ChrisHolmes (Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:41 pm)
40th Anniversary RX8
R3 Wheels: PZ Coilovers: RRP 'Red' Coils: RRP Engine mounts (softer ones): RRP COFS: RRP Blue Pulleys: Silicon hoses in blue: Goodridge brake lines: HEL clutch line: Racing Beat ARB's: SS Braided oil lines: Mishimoto radiator (oem fans)
R3 Wheels: PZ Coilovers: RRP 'Red' Coils: RRP Engine mounts (softer ones): RRP COFS: RRP Blue Pulleys: Silicon hoses in blue: Goodridge brake lines: HEL clutch line: Racing Beat ARB's: SS Braided oil lines: Mishimoto radiator (oem fans)
-
- Former Member
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:51 pm
- RX-8: PZ
- Colour: Brilliant Black
- Location: Milton keynes
- Has thanked: 4 times
- Been thanked: 21 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
I wedged the brake pedal twice overnight and nothing, no level drop either. I'm going to get the hard lines renewed, there's probably going to be a pin hole leak somewhere but i cannot find any fluid on the floor. If i replace them then everything has been swapped out so if it doesn't work after that then i give up. Though i don't think i'll get it done this side of Christmas now. If anyone wants to come and take a look then you're more than welcome and greatly appreciated
-
- Club Member
- Posts: 28283
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:04 pm
- Location: Cheltenham
- Has thanked: 2567 times
- Been thanked: 940 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
if you had a fluid leak then you would have seen the evidence by now so I doubt replacing the pipes is going to change anything.
Do you get any sort of resistance at all when you pump the pedal?
Do you get any sort of resistance at all when you pump the pedal?
Rotary History;
Sep 2005-Aug 2006 EO55 XOL VR 231 New
Oct 2014-Mar 2019 OE06 EWJ VR 231
Jan 2019-Jun 2020 T200 CAD Orange SC 231
Feb 2020-May 2023 RR54 AJR VR 231 Modified for Track
Oct 2020-Mar 2021 YA56 EUE Copper Red Nemesis
Jun 2022-Apr 2023 TN07 JHD KURO Resurrected
Jun 2023-Jan2024 OV09 BFF Sparkling Black R3
Avatar courtesy of my grandson Cameron
Sep 2005-Aug 2006 EO55 XOL VR 231 New
Oct 2014-Mar 2019 OE06 EWJ VR 231
Jan 2019-Jun 2020 T200 CAD Orange SC 231
Feb 2020-May 2023 RR54 AJR VR 231 Modified for Track
Oct 2020-Mar 2021 YA56 EUE Copper Red Nemesis
Jun 2022-Apr 2023 TN07 JHD KURO Resurrected
Jun 2023-Jan2024 OV09 BFF Sparkling Black R3
Avatar courtesy of my grandson Cameron
-
- Former Member
- Posts: 1390
- Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 4:55 pm
- Has thanked: 49 times
- Been thanked: 20 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
I had on my Grand Voyager the tiniest pin hole, which sprayed just a fine mist that you couldn't see unless you actually seen it spraying! It would brake but fade over a week and drove me crazy until I was bleeding it yet again and felt this spray on my leg. It came from a joint that a garage linked a new brake line and the mushroom was sh*t!
Robin
Robin
-
- Club Member
- Posts: 615
- Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:31 pm
- RX-8: 40th Anniversary
- Colour: Metropolitan Grey
- Location: Redhill
- Has thanked: 75 times
- Been thanked: 34 times
Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
So you are pretty lucky with brake faults then?
40th Anniversary RX8
R3 Wheels: PZ Coilovers: RRP 'Red' Coils: RRP Engine mounts (softer ones): RRP COFS: RRP Blue Pulleys: Silicon hoses in blue: Goodridge brake lines: HEL clutch line: Racing Beat ARB's: SS Braided oil lines: Mishimoto radiator (oem fans)
R3 Wheels: PZ Coilovers: RRP 'Red' Coils: RRP Engine mounts (softer ones): RRP COFS: RRP Blue Pulleys: Silicon hoses in blue: Goodridge brake lines: HEL clutch line: Racing Beat ARB's: SS Braided oil lines: Mishimoto radiator (oem fans)