Bleeding Brake Problem
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
So i bled the system again today using the vacuum bleeder while having someone standing by the reservoir to make sure it doesn't empty. The same thing happened...
So off i went to Mazda to ask one of their tech's. I was told to remove one line from the master cylinder, block the hole and then try and bleed those 2 calipers, then the other 2. That may tell me which line is drawing in air and obviously which one needs looking at. So i'll hopefully give that a go tomorrow with the blockers that he gave me. It's funny, they immediately asked me about the RX8 as soon as i walked in, i think they knew...
So off i went to Mazda to ask one of their tech's. I was told to remove one line from the master cylinder, block the hole and then try and bleed those 2 calipers, then the other 2. That may tell me which line is drawing in air and obviously which one needs looking at. So i'll hopefully give that a go tomorrow with the blockers that he gave me. It's funny, they immediately asked me about the RX8 as soon as i walked in, i think they knew...
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
Have you bled it with car running? Opens up the valves in ABS unit. Saved me once.
Pete, the wedge pedal down method has also worked for me. Most noticbly on Lotus Elise which is notorious for leaving air in the link pipe between front 2 pot calipers.
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Pete, the wedge pedal down method has also worked for me. Most noticbly on Lotus Elise which is notorious for leaving air in the link pipe between front 2 pot calipers.
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
When you're keeping the system topped-up, are you using totally new fluid or fluid that has already been pumped through the system and collected in the jar?
When replacing pipes, such that the fluid comes out looking clean, it's very tempting to recycle rather than splash-out for new, but that's a big no-no.
Even if it's chemically clean, the action of being pumped through an unbled system will have introduced air in suspension within the fluid, such that you will never get a firm pedal.
If you must recycle then the fluid must be left standing in a closed container quietly on the shelf for a few days before reuse. It may not look any different afterwards but it is.
Even new fresh fluid will become contaminated with air if you shake the bottle, and before you say "I'd never do that", we've all done that rattle-action with a part-filled bottle to judge how much is left, and that's sufficient to cause the problem.
When we ran the Motorcycle Maintenance Workshop we kept stocks of brake fluid in a cupboard. Even if someone brought down their own to use, we would swap what they'd just carried on the back of a bike for stock that had been sitting on the shelf, as it made that much difference.
If you've only been using fresh, unshaken, fluid for topping-up then all this won't have helped you, though helpfully it might help someone else who's reading this from getting caught next time.
The problem with remote problem diagnosis is that you only have what someone is telling you to work with. There's nothing like being there and watching to be able to say "That's what you're doing wrong..."
When replacing pipes, such that the fluid comes out looking clean, it's very tempting to recycle rather than splash-out for new, but that's a big no-no.
Even if it's chemically clean, the action of being pumped through an unbled system will have introduced air in suspension within the fluid, such that you will never get a firm pedal.
If you must recycle then the fluid must be left standing in a closed container quietly on the shelf for a few days before reuse. It may not look any different afterwards but it is.
Even new fresh fluid will become contaminated with air if you shake the bottle, and before you say "I'd never do that", we've all done that rattle-action with a part-filled bottle to judge how much is left, and that's sufficient to cause the problem.
When we ran the Motorcycle Maintenance Workshop we kept stocks of brake fluid in a cupboard. Even if someone brought down their own to use, we would swap what they'd just carried on the back of a bike for stock that had been sitting on the shelf, as it made that much difference.
If you've only been using fresh, unshaken, fluid for topping-up then all this won't have helped you, though helpfully it might help someone else who's reading this from getting caught next time.
The problem with remote problem diagnosis is that you only have what someone is telling you to work with. There's nothing like being there and watching to be able to say "That's what you're doing wrong..."
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
Yeah someone here with more knowledge than me would probably point out the problem pretty quick.
Using new fluid only but I am keeping the fluid that's going through now as it's all new fluid coming out. Only new fluid going in.
I have also bled the system with the engine running multiple times.
Using new fluid only but I am keeping the fluid that's going through now as it's all new fluid coming out. Only new fluid going in.
I have also bled the system with the engine running multiple times.
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
Ive only ever lost 1 master cylinder bleeding brakes and that was yonks ago...but i never go fully down, ive trained my wife to go about 2/3..personally i open nipple with the downstroke and when my wife say down i close nipple and then tell her togo up..
Has the technique youve used damaged 2 master cylinders? Or is the 2nd hand spare no good...? Id be inclined if me to buy anew Master cylinder and start over...and bleed only going 80% down...
Using a used master cylinder and bleeding pedal all the way down pushing seal onto unused part of cylinder bore possibly damaging seal..
Prob not what you want to hear but does sound like 2nd master cylinder is dead to me.
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Has the technique youve used damaged 2 master cylinders? Or is the 2nd hand spare no good...? Id be inclined if me to buy anew Master cylinder and start over...and bleed only going 80% down...
Using a used master cylinder and bleeding pedal all the way down pushing seal onto unused part of cylinder bore possibly damaging seal..
Prob not what you want to hear but does sound like 2nd master cylinder is dead to me.
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
How many times have we seen people post "It can't be x because I just changed that..."
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
Yep...i did it myself with an rx8 maf...ebay good used maf fully working order...nope same code "cant be the maf then" .....
Yes it was ! 2 garage shelf trophies lol.
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Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
231 streetported Rx8 renny powered Westfield kit race car. SOLD
92 Rx7 fd3s stock twins..est.320bhp. RETIRED Track car.
93 eunos s-sp 1.6 turbo gt2545r 226bhp track slag. in continuous development.
Scooby doo bugeye wagon wrx daily.
Mondeodog towcar.
Mx5 mk2 1.8 10ae nice day daily rust bucket.
92 Rx7 fd3s stock twins..est.320bhp. RETIRED Track car.
93 eunos s-sp 1.6 turbo gt2545r 226bhp track slag. in continuous development.
Scooby doo bugeye wagon wrx daily.
Mondeodog towcar.
Mx5 mk2 1.8 10ae nice day daily rust bucket.
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
It's highly possible the master cylinder has had it but until i eliminate everything else i can't just decide it's one thing i changed that's causing it. I've already fitted a known working master cylinder so the chances of it going again are probably quite slim. I'll therefore try what i've been told by Mazda and see what happens. If i can't find the problem then i can always come back to the master cylinder and logically assume that the replacement is faulty and fit a new one. I'd prefer to just buy a rebuild kit considering i have 2 master cylinders now but i can't find one anywhere online, i wonder if Mazda can get hold of a kit...
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
Also i want to say thanks for everyone's input, your knowledge has been invaluable!
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
Whats the history with the car? Brake pedal firm before overhaul? Soz if another post elsewhere..abs light not on etc?
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231 streetported Rx8 renny powered Westfield kit race car. SOLD
92 Rx7 fd3s stock twins..est.320bhp. RETIRED Track car.
93 eunos s-sp 1.6 turbo gt2545r 226bhp track slag. in continuous development.
Scooby doo bugeye wagon wrx daily.
Mondeodog towcar.
Mx5 mk2 1.8 10ae nice day daily rust bucket.
92 Rx7 fd3s stock twins..est.320bhp. RETIRED Track car.
93 eunos s-sp 1.6 turbo gt2545r 226bhp track slag. in continuous development.
Scooby doo bugeye wagon wrx daily.
Mondeodog towcar.
Mx5 mk2 1.8 10ae nice day daily rust bucket.
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
Quick google came back with:Ashman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:13 pmIt's highly possible the master cylinder has had it but until i eliminate everything else i can't just decide it's one thing i changed that's causing it. I've already fitted a known working master cylinder so the chances of it going again are probably quite slim. I'll therefore try what i've been told by Mazda and see what happens. If i can't find the problem then i can always come back to the master cylinder and logically assume that the replacement is faulty and fit a new one. I'd prefer to just buy a rebuild kit considering i have 2 master cylinders now but i can't find one anywhere online, i wonder if Mazda can get hold of a kit...
https://www.autodoc.co.uk/car-parts/rep ... /rx-8-se17
(No recommendation from myself as never heard of them)
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Pete/Peter him/he/hrh couldn't really care as have 3 siblings and was lucky not to get called by the dogs name.
Living with a rotary - 7 Years in
viewtopic.php?p=1105043#p1105043
Pete/Peter him/he/hrh couldn't really care as have 3 siblings and was lucky not to get called by the dogs name.
Living with a rotary - 7 Years in
viewtopic.php?p=1105043#p1105043
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
And Biggred brake company for parts....
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231 streetported Rx8 renny powered Westfield kit race car. SOLD
92 Rx7 fd3s stock twins..est.320bhp. RETIRED Track car.
93 eunos s-sp 1.6 turbo gt2545r 226bhp track slag. in continuous development.
Scooby doo bugeye wagon wrx daily.
Mondeodog towcar.
Mx5 mk2 1.8 10ae nice day daily rust bucket.
92 Rx7 fd3s stock twins..est.320bhp. RETIRED Track car.
93 eunos s-sp 1.6 turbo gt2545r 226bhp track slag. in continuous development.
Scooby doo bugeye wagon wrx daily.
Mondeodog towcar.
Mx5 mk2 1.8 10ae nice day daily rust bucket.
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
I saw those but they're out of stock, have been for weeks. I did ask them to notify me when they're back in stock but nothing so far.bigpete8 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:25 pmQuick google came back with:Ashman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:13 pmIt's highly possible the master cylinder has had it but until i eliminate everything else i can't just decide it's one thing i changed that's causing it. I've already fitted a known working master cylinder so the chances of it going again are probably quite slim. I'll therefore try what i've been told by Mazda and see what happens. If i can't find the problem then i can always come back to the master cylinder and logically assume that the replacement is faulty and fit a new one. I'd prefer to just buy a rebuild kit considering i have 2 master cylinders now but i can't find one anywhere online, i wonder if Mazda can get hold of a kit...
https://www.autodoc.co.uk/car-parts/rep ... /rx-8-se17
(No recommendation from myself as never heard of them)
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
I couldn't find a master cylinder kit on there, i looked for entry level too as well as using my reg number as the reservoirs are the same(?).
Still i've never heard of them so bookmarked
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
So today i removed one pipe from the reservoir, blocked it off and then tried bleeding the 2 calipers that run off that line and the pedal is the same. So i swapped lines and did the other 2 and it was identical. So i thought i'd eliminate the braided lines i fitted by swapping them back to the rubber lines and bled the system again and was the same.
It's looking like master cylinder again so it'll probably need a rebuild or a completely new one. I'll see where my finances stand at the end of the month and maybe order a new one, at least it's done then.
If anyone wants to take a look you are more than welcome, there may even be an alcoholic beverage waiting for anyone who can make it stiff, hard and usable... (this is my polite way of asking for help lol)
It's looking like master cylinder again so it'll probably need a rebuild or a completely new one. I'll see where my finances stand at the end of the month and maybe order a new one, at least it's done then.
If anyone wants to take a look you are more than welcome, there may even be an alcoholic beverage waiting for anyone who can make it stiff, hard and usable... (this is my polite way of asking for help lol)
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
Give Clive a ring at Mazda Rotary Parts...if there available he will know. He gets oem parts and access to mazda parts database..if theres a rebuild kit out there he will know.
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231 streetported Rx8 renny powered Westfield kit race car. SOLD
92 Rx7 fd3s stock twins..est.320bhp. RETIRED Track car.
93 eunos s-sp 1.6 turbo gt2545r 226bhp track slag. in continuous development.
Scooby doo bugeye wagon wrx daily.
Mondeodog towcar.
Mx5 mk2 1.8 10ae nice day daily rust bucket.
92 Rx7 fd3s stock twins..est.320bhp. RETIRED Track car.
93 eunos s-sp 1.6 turbo gt2545r 226bhp track slag. in continuous development.
Scooby doo bugeye wagon wrx daily.
Mondeodog towcar.
Mx5 mk2 1.8 10ae nice day daily rust bucket.
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
Im on Tapatalk mate whats your location...
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231 streetported Rx8 renny powered Westfield kit race car. SOLD
92 Rx7 fd3s stock twins..est.320bhp. RETIRED Track car.
93 eunos s-sp 1.6 turbo gt2545r 226bhp track slag. in continuous development.
Scooby doo bugeye wagon wrx daily.
Mondeodog towcar.
Mx5 mk2 1.8 10ae nice day daily rust bucket.
92 Rx7 fd3s stock twins..est.320bhp. RETIRED Track car.
93 eunos s-sp 1.6 turbo gt2545r 226bhp track slag. in continuous development.
Scooby doo bugeye wagon wrx daily.
Mondeodog towcar.
Mx5 mk2 1.8 10ae nice day daily rust bucket.
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
Milton Keynes...im in Gran Caneria at mo..anyone local take alook...?
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231 streetported Rx8 renny powered Westfield kit race car. SOLD
92 Rx7 fd3s stock twins..est.320bhp. RETIRED Track car.
93 eunos s-sp 1.6 turbo gt2545r 226bhp track slag. in continuous development.
Scooby doo bugeye wagon wrx daily.
Mondeodog towcar.
Mx5 mk2 1.8 10ae nice day daily rust bucket.
92 Rx7 fd3s stock twins..est.320bhp. RETIRED Track car.
93 eunos s-sp 1.6 turbo gt2545r 226bhp track slag. in continuous development.
Scooby doo bugeye wagon wrx daily.
Mondeodog towcar.
Mx5 mk2 1.8 10ae nice day daily rust bucket.
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
Of topic but.....£50 for a brand new TRW / Sumitomo front brake caliper!!!!bigpete8 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:25 pmQuick google came back with:Ashman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:13 pmIt's highly possible the master cylinder has had it but until i eliminate everything else i can't just decide it's one thing i changed that's causing it. I've already fitted a known working master cylinder so the chances of it going again are probably quite slim. I'll therefore try what i've been told by Mazda and see what happens. If i can't find the problem then i can always come back to the master cylinder and logically assume that the replacement is faulty and fit a new one. I'd prefer to just buy a rebuild kit considering i have 2 master cylinders now but i can't find one anywhere online, i wonder if Mazda can get hold of a kit...
https://www.autodoc.co.uk/car-parts/rep ... /rx-8-se17
(No recommendation from myself as never heard of them)
Rotary History;
Sep 2005-Aug 2006 EO55 XOL VR 231 New
Oct 2014-Mar 2019 OE06 EWJ VR 231
Jan 2019-Jun 2020 T200 CAD Orange SC 231
Feb 2020-May 2023 RR54 AJR VR 231 Modified for Track
Oct 2020-Mar 2021 YA56 EUE Copper Red Nemesis
Jun 2022-Apr 2023 TN07 JHD KURO Resurrected
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Sep 2005-Aug 2006 EO55 XOL VR 231 New
Oct 2014-Mar 2019 OE06 EWJ VR 231
Jan 2019-Jun 2020 T200 CAD Orange SC 231
Feb 2020-May 2023 RR54 AJR VR 231 Modified for Track
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
Sorry mate i didn't see this comment earlier. The car was sitting on the forecourt at Mazda in MK for around 18 months, it was a trade-in so i'm assuming it was in use before that but it did have issues. When i bought it the brakes were completely shot, the calipers needed slider pins, new bleed screws, discs, pads and i bought braided lines too. The brakes did work before i replaced them, they were just really bad given that they were completely rusted and worn. All i did was remove the brake lines and replace with braided lines, clean and paint the calipers and fit new sliders and bleed screws and refitted with new discs and pads. Then we bled the system and since then the pedal has gone straight to the floor as though there is no pressure built up. I've put 3 liters of fluid through the system and it's come right back out the other side with absolutely no pedal pressure at all. I've replaced the master cylinder, ok it was a secondhand one but the chances of 2 going pop are slim. I've tried blocking off one line from the master cylinder and bleeding those calipers and then vice versa and it's all the same. I've even put some plumbers tape on the bleed screws to minimize the risk of air being sucked back through the threads. It's as though i am doing something wrong but i have no idea what it is...
Sorry for the wall of text, it just kinda flowed from my frustration
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
A wild suggestion! Blank off all the outlets from the MC and if the pedal goes to the floor then you know the fluid is going past the seals. Could be stupid suggestion!
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Rotary History;
Sep 2005-Aug 2006 EO55 XOL VR 231 New
Oct 2014-Mar 2019 OE06 EWJ VR 231
Jan 2019-Jun 2020 T200 CAD Orange SC 231
Feb 2020-May 2023 RR54 AJR VR 231 Modified for Track
Oct 2020-Mar 2021 YA56 EUE Copper Red Nemesis
Jun 2022-Apr 2023 TN07 JHD KURO Resurrected
Jun 2023-Jan2024 OV09 BFF Sparkling Black
Sep 2005-Aug 2006 EO55 XOL VR 231 New
Oct 2014-Mar 2019 OE06 EWJ VR 231
Jan 2019-Jun 2020 T200 CAD Orange SC 231
Feb 2020-May 2023 RR54 AJR VR 231 Modified for Track
Oct 2020-Mar 2021 YA56 EUE Copper Red Nemesis
Jun 2022-Apr 2023 TN07 JHD KURO Resurrected
Jun 2023-Jan2024 OV09 BFF Sparkling Black
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
I will shoot him a message, thanks man
Not a stupid suggestion at all mate, though i'm not sure if forcing the fluid to go through the seals would be a good idea if they're as fragile as i think they are. It's a shame i have no way of pressure testing the master cylinder with a gauge so i can see if the pressure is falling or not, though again i would have no idea how much pressure is too much.ChrisHolmes wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:05 pmA wild suggestion! Blank off all the outlets from the MC and if the pedal goes to the floor then you know the fluid is going past the seals. Could be stupid suggestion!
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Re: Bleeding Brake Problem
That’s the point, the pedal should be rock hard, if you can get movement then fluid is passing the seals and that’s the problem identified, bad sealing in the MC
Rotary History;
Sep 2005-Aug 2006 EO55 XOL VR 231 New
Oct 2014-Mar 2019 OE06 EWJ VR 231
Jan 2019-Jun 2020 T200 CAD Orange SC 231
Feb 2020-May 2023 RR54 AJR VR 231 Modified for Track
Oct 2020-Mar 2021 YA56 EUE Copper Red Nemesis
Jun 2022-Apr 2023 TN07 JHD KURO Resurrected
Jun 2023-Jan2024 OV09 BFF Sparkling Black
Sep 2005-Aug 2006 EO55 XOL VR 231 New
Oct 2014-Mar 2019 OE06 EWJ VR 231
Jan 2019-Jun 2020 T200 CAD Orange SC 231
Feb 2020-May 2023 RR54 AJR VR 231 Modified for Track
Oct 2020-Mar 2021 YA56 EUE Copper Red Nemesis
Jun 2022-Apr 2023 TN07 JHD KURO Resurrected
Jun 2023-Jan2024 OV09 BFF Sparkling Black
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