4 wheel alignment within tolerance

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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by kopite72 »

Ok Pete thanks, I'll call them tomorrow and have a chat
R3 GONE, FUN WHILE I HAD HER BUT NOW LOVING MY 25TH ANNIVERSARY MX5

Mods so far..
BBR 200 PACKAGE
COBRA " RACE " BACK BOX
MEISTER COILOVERS
KONIG HYPERGRAMS ( POLISHED LIP)
RACING BEAT ARB's ( FRONT AND REAR )
IL MOTORSPORTS STRUT BRACE AND ADJUSTABLE
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by AndyBrad »

would you mind commentating if i should get mine looked at again as well?

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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by kopite72 »

Looking at yours it seems to me that the ' goto ' alignment table seems to be the standard set up.Almost every alignment pic I've seen is a standard set up so these garages either don't know that there is a sports set up or just couldn't be arsed.

Pete stated earlier to me that while the standard set up is fine the car would be better with the sports set up but for everyday use the standard set up is fine.

Regarding your figures I really don't know what to advise you but I'm sure the lads will be along soon enough to set you straight ;)
R3 GONE, FUN WHILE I HAD HER BUT NOW LOVING MY 25TH ANNIVERSARY MX5

Mods so far..
BBR 200 PACKAGE
COBRA " RACE " BACK BOX
MEISTER COILOVERS
KONIG HYPERGRAMS ( POLISHED LIP)
RACING BEAT ARB's ( FRONT AND REAR )
IL MOTORSPORTS STRUT BRACE AND ADJUSTABLE
DROPLINKS

Mods planned..
BBR STAGE 2 SUPERCHARGED
WILWOOD 6 POT BBK
FULL UNDRBODY SEAL
ATOTO HEAD UNIT
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by Scartlead »

Chaps, how do I do a rough alignment of my front wheels diy style? Now I’ve removed and refitted all suspension arms and now have one wheel pointing 2 mins to 12 and the other probably 3/4 mins past. It is only a v temp measure until I get a full 4 wheel alignment in a couple of weeks.

Thanks all.
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by ChrisHolmes »

Simple answer is that without alignment equipment you cannot do even a rough set up.
You need to go to someone who has the necessary kit.
A bit late but for future reference if your going to replace the same parts again you should mark the position of the alignment adjusting discs before stripping off the suspension then you can get them back in the same place , but you still need to have the alignment checked.
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by Scartlead »

Thanks Chris, it will only be running like this for a week or so until I get a full alignment, maybe 50 miles or so. The car feels ‘vague’ at the moment, at least I know why, so hopefully should be back to ‘ being on rails ‘ once the alignment is done.
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by ChrisHolmes »

Be very careful if it rains at all!
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by PeteH »

Actually you can.
1 Put the car on flat level ground.
2. Put the steering wheel to exactly the straight ahead position. This will take some jiggling because the tyres will be scrubbing on the ground.
3. Crouch down in front of the car with your eyes at hub height and look down the side of the car. You are looking to move your head until it is directly in line with both the front of the front wheel and the rear of the front wheel. Now, without moving your head, look towards the rear wheel. The edges of the front wheel should line up with the edges of the rear wheels.
4. If a straight line from the front wheel intersects with a point on the tread of the rear wheels the that front wheel is toeing out too much, so adjust it. If you can't even see the rear wheel then that front wheel is toeing in too much, so adjust it.
5. Repeat for the other front wheel.

You can also do this with string if you prefer, but I like the visual method. I find it can be super-accurate, if you know what you are doing, and are careful. It's worth freeing off the track rod lock nuts first, because space is tight with the car on the ground.
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by warpc0il »

It's much like aligning the wheels on a bike, only you have to do both sides independently.

Easier than a bike because you don't have to compensate for wider rear tyres, unless you've got a staggered setup.

Make sure you've rolled the car forward or back at least 6ft after lowering from the jack, to allow the camber to sort itself out.

If you've got some vinyl flooring offcuts handy then two layers, shiny sides together, under each front wheel makes adjustment much easier.

I did my old Alfa like this and a laser check later confirmed it was spot on :D

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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by kopite72 »

Printed off the ' sports' alignment set up and gave it to the guy who was doing the alignment on my car today. After a bit of an argument I insisted he go with the specs I gave him instead of the ' standard' set up most places seem to use.... The result? Much much much better!!

Delighted with the way she handles now plus my wheel balancing was ' way out' ( his words not mine) so I had that done too.

To summarise I strongly recommend people print off the ' sports' alignment set up and give it to them and insist they use those numbers AND get the wheels balanced as you're at it,the car will thank you for it
R3 GONE, FUN WHILE I HAD HER BUT NOW LOVING MY 25TH ANNIVERSARY MX5

Mods so far..
BBR 200 PACKAGE
COBRA " RACE " BACK BOX
MEISTER COILOVERS
KONIG HYPERGRAMS ( POLISHED LIP)
RACING BEAT ARB's ( FRONT AND REAR )
IL MOTORSPORTS STRUT BRACE AND ADJUSTABLE
DROPLINKS

Mods planned..
BBR STAGE 2 SUPERCHARGED
WILWOOD 6 POT BBK
FULL UNDRBODY SEAL
ATOTO HEAD UNIT
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by Scartlead »

Glad to hear another 8 back to handling the way it should! Had mine done a week back and the difference was immense. Was done on a 'hunter' machine , apparently a good one so Im told.
Aka Mark

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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by kopite72 »

Nice one scart ( sorry I don't know your name) but yeah totally agree with you, proper alignment makes all the difference to handling.

Going back to the ' standard' set up vs the ' sports' set up the difference really is noticeable. Car just feels that bit sharper and more responsive to steering inputs.

Trouble is that all the alignment places I've been to only have the ' standard' set up in their systems hence why I printed off the ' sports' set up and insisted they use that instead.

Mine was done on a really fancy looking yolk, LED's everywhere on it, I don't know what make it was but it was state of the art to be fair
R3 GONE, FUN WHILE I HAD HER BUT NOW LOVING MY 25TH ANNIVERSARY MX5

Mods so far..
BBR 200 PACKAGE
COBRA " RACE " BACK BOX
MEISTER COILOVERS
KONIG HYPERGRAMS ( POLISHED LIP)
RACING BEAT ARB's ( FRONT AND REAR )
IL MOTORSPORTS STRUT BRACE AND ADJUSTABLE
DROPLINKS

Mods planned..
BBR STAGE 2 SUPERCHARGED
WILWOOD 6 POT BBK
FULL UNDRBODY SEAL
ATOTO HEAD UNIT
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by AutoGibbon »

I take it that the specs documented in the interactive manuals apply to the all editions of the RX8?
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by kopite72 »

I'm assume so, Dave will confirm this but I would think this is the case. Its just that's there's two sets of alignment figures that alot of owners IMO are not aware of
R3 GONE, FUN WHILE I HAD HER BUT NOW LOVING MY 25TH ANNIVERSARY MX5

Mods so far..
BBR 200 PACKAGE
COBRA " RACE " BACK BOX
MEISTER COILOVERS
KONIG HYPERGRAMS ( POLISHED LIP)
RACING BEAT ARB's ( FRONT AND REAR )
IL MOTORSPORTS STRUT BRACE AND ADJUSTABLE
DROPLINKS

Mods planned..
BBR STAGE 2 SUPERCHARGED
WILWOOD 6 POT BBK
FULL UNDRBODY SEAL
ATOTO HEAD UNIT
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by warpc0il »

The answer is yes, and no.

Just as all UK-spec Series 1 RX8's came with either Mazda Sports Suspension or the Bilstein equivalent (e.g. PZ or 40th Anniversary) so the only version of the Series 2 that we got was the R3, which also came with Bilstein Suspension.

Globally there are Series 1's with Standard Suspension, particularly in the US and Japan but also many markets outside of the UK, and there were a number of version of the Series 2's, most of which also had Standard Suspension.

Mazda Europe didn't publish any suspension alignment data specifically for the R3 and advised dealers to use the (Sports Suspension) tables for the S1.

I've just been doing some more digging and discovered that Mazda North American Operations did produce tables specifically for the Series 2, with both Standard Suspension and Sports Suspension, as they had versions with both (either?).

The Sports Suspension alignment tables for the S1 & (US) S2 are very similar but not identical; the ride height steps being slightly different for each adjustment*. It's difficult to visualise the impact of this (if any) looking at the tables side-by-side, they really need to be plotted on overlayed charts to see how much they overlap. I'll see if I can put something together in the next few days.

The above is more a nerd exercise, since Mazda Europe already made it clear that R3's should be set the same as a UK-spec S1, and even a quick check of the numbers shows that the US-produced S2 Sports Suspension tables have much more in common with the Mazda Europe recommendation than with any Standard Suspension table.

Short Answer: If your RX8 is an official UK-specification S1 or S2(R3) then you should be having the alignment set following the Sports Suspension tables as shown in the Workshop Manual viewtopic.php?f=58&t=35629


*Update: A second check of the numbers and I suspect I've discovered why the differences. Americans still "think" in feet and inches, so they must have plotted the numbers produced by the Japanese in mm, then read back off the scale in even-numbered tenths of an inch to get their slightly differently sliced ranges. The UK/European tables are nicely sliced in metric with odd looking imperial conversions, while the US tables have neat imperial slices with odd looking metric conversions. This means that I'm even more convinced that the net result is the same, though I will draw them all out to prove it, at which point I'll also copy&paste a big chunk on this to the Technical FAQ.
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by kopite72 »

Thanks for that Dave, great info as always. All I can say from experiencing both set ups now is that the sports set up is much better.

I'll be using it from here on in but just to add ( as I stated) previously, the wheel balancing is a big contributing factor aswell. Mine were well off so that's why it felt really good afterwards,obviously if my balancing was fine then I wouldn't have felt such a marked improvement but it just goes to show that in order to maximise the handling characteristics of the car ( any car really) everything must be set up optimally.

I'm quite the nerd when it comes to handling/suspension ect ect. I find if really interesting......

OK ill get me coat :lol:
R3 GONE, FUN WHILE I HAD HER BUT NOW LOVING MY 25TH ANNIVERSARY MX5

Mods so far..
BBR 200 PACKAGE
COBRA " RACE " BACK BOX
MEISTER COILOVERS
KONIG HYPERGRAMS ( POLISHED LIP)
RACING BEAT ARB's ( FRONT AND REAR )
IL MOTORSPORTS STRUT BRACE AND ADJUSTABLE
DROPLINKS

Mods planned..
BBR STAGE 2 SUPERCHARGED
WILWOOD 6 POT BBK
FULL UNDRBODY SEAL
ATOTO HEAD UNIT
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by Ainmhidh »

I wonder (somewhat selfishly) about R3s which have the PZ suspension fitted - should they then use the S1 or S2 sports alignment tables?
I guess wait and see what Dave comes up with in the comparison between the tables, and from your experience Ian, I suppose either is better than neither!
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by kopite72 »

Hi Alan,next time you're getting your alignment done definately print out the sports settings and tell them work with those numbers,trust me you'll never go back to the ' standard ' set up.

If you do go with the sports set up let me know your impressions,id be very interested to see what you think as a fellow R3 owner but I think you'll be quite pleased ;)
R3 GONE, FUN WHILE I HAD HER BUT NOW LOVING MY 25TH ANNIVERSARY MX5

Mods so far..
BBR 200 PACKAGE
COBRA " RACE " BACK BOX
MEISTER COILOVERS
KONIG HYPERGRAMS ( POLISHED LIP)
RACING BEAT ARB's ( FRONT AND REAR )
IL MOTORSPORTS STRUT BRACE AND ADJUSTABLE
DROPLINKS

Mods planned..
BBR STAGE 2 SUPERCHARGED
WILWOOD 6 POT BBK
FULL UNDRBODY SEAL
ATOTO HEAD UNIT
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by Ainmhidh »

I've actually never had an alignment done, well I got it checked when I was experiencing odd vibration (turned out to be a crappy tyre inner sidewall) and the guy said it was 'spot on', though I've no idea what he was comparing it too...
Still on the (8 year old) R3 suspension at the moment, I assume on the factory alignment as nothing's ever been done to the suspension to my knowledge.
Alan (he/him)| 2010 R3 | stock apart from a couple of dings and scrapes! (Black diamond discs, yellow stuff pads, RRP MkII Coils, MSD leads...)
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by kopite72 »

Wow, never had it done? I'd definitely have it done in that case if I were you. I'd be surprised if everything was within spec after eight years but then again who knows?Your curiosity must be stirred now? :giggle:
R3 GONE, FUN WHILE I HAD HER BUT NOW LOVING MY 25TH ANNIVERSARY MX5

Mods so far..
BBR 200 PACKAGE
COBRA " RACE " BACK BOX
MEISTER COILOVERS
KONIG HYPERGRAMS ( POLISHED LIP)
RACING BEAT ARB's ( FRONT AND REAR )
IL MOTORSPORTS STRUT BRACE AND ADJUSTABLE
DROPLINKS

Mods planned..
BBR STAGE 2 SUPERCHARGED
WILWOOD 6 POT BBK
FULL UNDRBODY SEAL
ATOTO HEAD UNIT
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by Freeman38 »

Use the string method, as you can do the alignment without mega expensive equipment.
Look it up there plenty of information and examples.
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by warpc0il »

You might get away with string for checking the front toe-angle, which is the only adjustment available on most cars, you won't be able to use it for the castor or camber, which is what gives a real sports car its edge.

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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by PjP »

Hi guys, so, I have just replaced my own struts with coilovers. So that I don't waste my money can anyone recommend somewhere near Dartford (Kent, Essex) to check and adjust alignment?
Also these are BC BR series coilovers. I first set them up 8 clicks from stiff but got a lot of bounce on the front end. Now have them set midway, less bounce but not quite as sure footed. Any tips? They are set quite low.
Cheers
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by warpc0il »

Okay, I finally found some time this evening to do detailed comparison between the Mazda factory data for the Series 1 and the Mazda NA Operations data for the Series 2.

Having wasted over an hour inputting the numbers into Excel and trying to produce meaningful graphs, I gave up and reverted to pencil and paper. :roll:

The short answer is that my initial guess had been correct and the Yanks just wanted their tables chunked in tenths of an inch rather than millimetres.

This scrappy graph shows the front camber degrees on the vertical axis against ride-height; S1 marked with and US S2 data marked with X
|
Camber S1 vs S2.jpg
|
as expected, the steps are different but the slope is identical; this means, input any given ride-height and you'll get the same camber angle, from either table.

I did even rougher graphs for the front castor, then repeated for the rears, with the same results.

In conclusion, it's safe to say that any UK-spec S1 or R3(S2) should be setup using the Sport Suspension tables provided by the factory.
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Re: 4 wheel alignment within tolerance

Post by kopite72 »

Great info Dave and many thanks for taking the time and the trouble to do it.

I can say from experience that the sports set up is superior to the standard set up. Yes you would look at that statement and say of course it is but IMO many owners are not aware of this.

Many owners are also not aware of a sports set up at all really because they take it as read that the alignment they get done is the correct set up and to a degree I suppose it is but if you want to get the best and most correct alignment set up then you have to go with the sports set up.

After I had the sports set up ( and wheels balanced) I noticed the difference through the first corner I took at speed. The car was much more sure footed and dare I say more responsive.
R3 GONE, FUN WHILE I HAD HER BUT NOW LOVING MY 25TH ANNIVERSARY MX5

Mods so far..
BBR 200 PACKAGE
COBRA " RACE " BACK BOX
MEISTER COILOVERS
KONIG HYPERGRAMS ( POLISHED LIP)
RACING BEAT ARB's ( FRONT AND REAR )
IL MOTORSPORTS STRUT BRACE AND ADJUSTABLE
DROPLINKS

Mods planned..
BBR STAGE 2 SUPERCHARGED
WILWOOD 6 POT BBK
FULL UNDRBODY SEAL
ATOTO HEAD UNIT
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