300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by warpc0il »

PeteH wrote:Do I have to Dave.....?

Ps. Far more interesting is the "speed over ground" sensor. These are actually common place (we use them on the F1 car). They don't use radar, they use a laser optical recognition process. It's rather complex, but it essentially looks at the rate of movements of the road texture. They are super accurate, and the only practical method of calculating true car speed. They actually measure speed in two directions (longitudinal and lateral), and some simple maths gives us the "slip angle" of the car, which is also rather important for us. (We also have GPS, but we don't use it much, except under very specific conditions).
How close to the road surface does that sensor have to be?

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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by Dr. FrankenRex »

warpc0il wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:48 am
Calling Pythagoras to the white courtesy phone...
Again, please jump on me to correct things, but it doesn't matter about pythagoras for this...

It's about vectors and perspectives as 'viewed' by the GPS.

If a vehicle is travelling past you left-to-right (ignoring doppler for now...) at 60mph you would perceive it at that speed.

If it was travelling 45 degrees away from you (the equivalent of a 1 in 1 gradient) then you would perceive that it is travelling at half the speed 'along the horizon' or as far as the GPS is concerned as the crow flies...

GPS uses triangulation, so there is potentially an element of altitude calculation available, but if these are not used (something I don't know about) then surely it is as simple as the above?

Answers on a postcard please.
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by warpc0il »

I looked at it a different way, though it might give the same answer...

If I'm driving up a hill then that's the hypotenuse of a triangle when viewed in section.

Let's say that the hill had an incline of around 36° and the road was 5 miles long, then we have a Pythagorean triple, and therefore the base is 4 miles and we have climbed 3 miles.

GPS is only concerned about the movement viewed from above and only "sees" the 4 miles and not 5 miles travelled.

This problem isn't unique to GPS as I came across it doing rallies in the 60's and 70's, navigating mountain roads with an OS map.

The actual road is significantly longer than shown on the flat map.
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by Dr. FrankenRex »

By my maths it does give a slightly different answer, but certainly a greater difference that Pete suggests.

By Pythagoras theorum a 1 in 1 hill (call it 3 in 3 for larger, clearer numbers) it would work out thus:

A squared, plus B squared being C squared would give you a hypotenuse length of 4.24(rounded from ~4.2426....). 3 divided by 4.24 gives .70 (again rounded) so an error percentage of 30%.

Obviously not quite the 50% error percentage that I'd figured, but still a lot more than Pete's figures?


EDIT, worked on the pythag numbers and realise that I'm wrong. Sorry team :D
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by PeteH »

warpc0il wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:26 pm
How close to the road surface does that sensor have to be?
It has to be in range. The range is quite wide though. Typically they are mounted about 8 inches from the road, and cope quite happily with the full suspension movement.
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by warpc0il »

Dan.NJ72 wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:40 pm
warpc0il wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:48 am
Calling Pythagoras to the white courtesy phone...
It's about vectors and perspectives as 'viewed' by the GPS.
We're going waaay of topic here but this reminded me of when I used to fly the de Havilland DH.104 Dove out of Dunsfold, to bring back the Harrier or Hawk pilots after they'd delivered new aircraft.

I say "fly" as I was allowed to take the controls for most of the flights (just not the up or down bits) and that meant also looking out for other aircraft.

When you spotted another plane then you held your head still and noted the position of the plane within the frame of the window (or a speck of dirt on the window).

If the plane appeared to move backwards within the frame then it would pass behind you.
If it appeared to move forwards within the frame then it would pass in front.

If it didn't appear to move at all, then you were on a collision course and it was time to give a shout to the qualified pilots.
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by ChrisHolmes »

Given that you guys are so knowledgable can you answer the question "How long is a piece of string?"
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by Rotary Potato »

ChrisHolmes wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:02 pm
Given that you guys are so knowledgable can you answer the question "How long is a piece of string?"
Twice as long as the distance fron the midpoint to one end. :lol:
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by ChrisHolmes »

Correct Too slow Pete and Dave!
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by PeteH »

Sorry, don't know much about string theory. :-k
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

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Chewing gum?
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by bigpete8 »

Was reading thread during the week and was thinking wow that would great if I could manage that.. Usual fill up is at 200 miles when light comes on...

Driving home on Friday fuel light came on at 175, never really thought much about it as been in loads of traffic.
Filled up at the pump and stopped at 51 litres, I guess an incline triggered the light prematurely and it doesn't go off once it is on?
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by Kevincraig »

Mine does that too sometimes. I find that leaving the car to stand for a while with ignition off usually works. Think it’s an unreliable sensor. If you know your car well then go with that.


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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by Ashman »

I really don't know how this is done. Recently i filled up my 190 and only managed 151 miles before the light came on. Do they really suffer that badly in town driving???
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by qwakers »

yes. mine was done on the m5 and m4 from cornwall to wales.
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by tyler82 »

Ashman wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:07 am
I really don't know how this is done. Recently i filled up my 190 and only managed 151 miles before the light came on. Do they really suffer that badly in town driving???
Don't worry about it - I have never managed to join this club either and I've owned my car for 5 and a half years.
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by Shagrington »

Ashman wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:07 am
Do they really suffer that badly in town driving???
It sounds to me like you're driving round town in too high a gear at too low revs. At 30mph and below I'll rarely get out of 2nd gear (OK, maybe 3rd if I'm rolling at 30, but given an open road and not being in a hurry I'd not get into 3rd until I was at about 40mph) and I expect to see over 200 around town (and this includes stop start traffic a lot of the time) before the light comes on. Try to keep it somewhere between 3k and 4k revs and drive a gear or two lower than you would in most other cars in similar circumstances. If you find yourself going uphill change down, on downhill stretches you can get into higher gears and use less throttle.

I have joined the 300 club two or three times on long motorway journeys without having to drive any differently to normal (so I wasn't exactly nursing it :twisted: ).
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by ChrisHolmes »

:whathesaid: :race:
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by Dr. FrankenRex »

Shagrington wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:21 pm
Ashman wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:07 am
Do they really suffer that badly in town driving???
It sounds to me like you're driving round town in too high a gear at too low revs. At 30mph and below I'll rarely get out of 2nd gear (OK, maybe 3rd if I'm rolling at 30, but given an open road and not being in a hurry I'd not get into 3rd until I was at about 40mph) and I expect to see over 200 around town (and this includes stop start traffic a lot of the time) before the light comes on. Try to keep it somewhere between 3k and 4k revs and drive a gear or two lower than you would in most other cars in similar circumstances. If you find yourself going uphill change down, on downhill stretches you can get into higher gears and use less throttle.

I have joined the 300 club two or three times on long motorway journeys without having to drive any differently to normal (so I wasn't exactly nursing it :twisted: ).
Strongly disagree.

If you're pootling along at 30 then be in 4th. The only caveat is that you need to drop to 2nd to accelerate. I get about 220-250 from a normal tank, including lots of town driving.

Heck, I'll drive at 30 in 6th gear on a long flat road - according to my dashcommand that'd give a range of about 350 miles - assuming you don't accelerate etc.
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by Shagrington »

My HKS Camp2 system showing (among other things) throttle position and exactly how much fuel is being injected at any given moment strongly disagrees with your dashcommand. ;) Maybe because your 231/R3 and my (and Ashman's) 192 differ on the gear ratios, but on a flat road at 30mph in a high gear (4th or 5th, we don't have 6th) with the low revs I'm having to use more throttle to maintain speed and more fuel is being injected than if I'm in a lower gear at about 3.5k revs. As I said before, on a downhill slope a higher gear is fine as I'm using less throttle (if it is steep enough it will be injecting less fuel than it does sitting idling), at least the Camp2, dashcommand and both of us agree changing down for the uphill bits is beneficial.
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by Dr. FrankenRex »

Same rules applied to my old 192 as well, although that was running a 6 speed rather than a 5 speed if that makes much of a difference.

My normal range from a tank is 270-280, although the R3 does have a marginally larger fuel tank.
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by Ashman »

Is the throttle on the RX8 fly by wire or does it connect directly to the throttle body via a cable?

If it is fly by wire then would throttle position not make a difference to fuelling given that the injectors and throttle body are computer controlled?

What i mean is you could floor the throttle in 4th at 30mph and it would make little difference to the amount of fuel being injected given that the computer deliberately prevents over-fuelling.

I could also be way off... lol
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by PeteH »

Ashman wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:45 pm
Is the throttle on the RX8 fly by wire or does it connect directly to the throttle body via a cable?

If it is fly by wire then would throttle position not make a difference to fuelling given that the injectors and throttle body are computer controlled?

What i mean is you could floor the throttle in 4th at 30mph and it would make little difference to the amount of fuel being injected given that the computer deliberately prevents over-fuelling.

I could also be way off... lol
Yes, it's fly-by-wire. But sorry, you are way off! The computer aims to keep a fairly consistent air-to-fuel ratio. When you whack open the throttle the motor takes in far more air, so it needs far more fuel. Unfortunately, a rotary is thermally quite inefficient at low revs, so all that fuel and air doesn't translate into much more torque. So you use lots of fuel, but don't really accelerate very much. If you drop a few gears then you put the engine into a much more thermally efficient region of operation, so when you open the throttle to add air and fuel the car develops torque and accelerates. This is why it's better to accelerate (or climb hills) in a lower gear than you might at first think.

But if you can avoid demanding too much torque then it's way more efficient to be in the highest gear possible.

The computer is good, and it does its best. But, in the words of Scottie, you canna change the laws of physics Captain.
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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by Kevincraig »

Ashman wrote:I really don't know how this is done. Recently i filled up my 190 and only managed 151 miles before the light came on. Do they really suffer that badly in town driving???

Not built for shopping trips. I travel 50 miles everyday (25 each way) and it costs me £10!!!! Still cheaper than a taxi and a lot more fun!


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Re: 300 Mile Club (S1 RX8s) or 325 mile club for S2 RX8s

Post by ChrisHolmes »

Just don't rev the nuts off it all the time. Change gear between 3 & 4K
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