I tried for you : the "Sprint Booster"

Useful hints, tips that you think will help other drivers and owners. (No questions)
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DexRex
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Post by DexRex » Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:36 am

Having said all that above, I did forget something that also goes hand-in-hand with mods............insurance increase !

Aha..........this time we can confound the b`stards, as the insurance shouldn`t go up, because the power-output isn`t increasing at all.

So yes..........that should be good news, unless anyone can rain on my parade ? :P

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Post by stuartm » Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:26 am

It would be good if it could be quickly switched on or off.
For Sale.......Whiteline adjustable anti-roll-bars front & rear.

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Post by Rasputin » Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:16 am

DexRex,

It does not trigger any CEL or fault code in the PCM ; it is not permently fitted to the car (and even easy to remove) ; it's concealed in a place no one looks at ; it does not affect the homologated WOT torque or power.
I can't see anyone haivng problems with the dealer or his insurance company.
Owner of a 2004 SP RX-8 from new. PCM recalibrated and revs to 9000 RPM.
3 Renesis opened and diagnosed so far.

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Post by DexRex » Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:57 pm

Okay Rasputin. 8)

I`ll await DirtyLeeds` appraisal on this, when he gets to try out his version.
Last edited by DexRex on Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Harrizone » Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:35 pm

^^^^^^^^ Likewise^^^^^^^^ :wink:
Now a distant memory unfortunately.

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Post by Rasputin » Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:37 pm

I should get it back this week. I'll send it to Dirty Leeds as soon as I get it.

F
Owner of a 2004 SP RX-8 from new. PCM recalibrated and revs to 9000 RPM.
3 Renesis opened and diagnosed so far.

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Post by Clive » Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:05 pm

Hi Fabrice,

I have read these posts with interest after someone directed me to them and without sounding like I am being a wet blanket are you sure that this device is not just locking the ECU into the third map on the car ?

If this is happening then this is fine all the time the car is being driven aggressively but if the car is being driven very moderately for a long period of time this would lead to much too much fuel going into the engine leading to plug fouling and also more worrying too much oil being injected leading to excessive carbon build up that could either lead to “carbon lock” and no compression (tips sticking in) or in extreme cases broken tips due to carbon build up around the exhaust ports.

Talking of maps I recently found out why the K n N Typhoon induction kit was withdrawn, this was because the ECU worked out on some cars that it was taking in more air past the intake sensor and was locking down the ECU into the first map and their for the car went slower.

Sorry if all the above sounds negative but all I am saying is this devise may appear to work fine short term but it may have detrimental long term effects.

Hope this helps
Cheers Clive

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Post by Rasputin » Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:14 pm

^^ Err, what do you call "the third map"??
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3 Renesis opened and diagnosed so far.

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Post by Rasputin » Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:15 am

druck wrote: and reduces sensitivity for balancing the car on the throlle on the track.
.
I'm surprised you say this, because it seems that most sportscars having a "sport" button (like BMW Ms) offer, among other recalibration settings, a more aggressive throttle progression. :-k
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3 Renesis opened and diagnosed so far.

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Post by Clive » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:48 am

druck wrote: but just remember it doesn't give you anythig can't do with your right foot already.
Exactly! but it could cause long term complications "posably"

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Post by Rasputin » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:18 am

Maybe you should try it before giving an opinion on this system. I was sceptic too until I tried it properly. So were some other owners.
The driveability issue I experienced was due to the fact I fitted a Sprint Booster designed for the HP RX-8, and I own a SP. The SP version is less aggressive.
Half a dozen of French owners have tried the sample I have on their HP, and they liked it, and we could also do a back to back comparison between the same Spront Booster in a SP and then in a HP, and the difference was obvious : the HP version is for the HP only.
However, some owners might not like it, or find it redundant with their already very heavy foot, I don't know. Anyway, some of you will try it, and give an unbiased opinion about it.
I'm not a dealer for this product, I'm just offering a joint order as I'm going to order one for me (the HP Sprint Booster I received for testing is not adapted to my SP RX-8).

I'll send the sample to you rapidly, and I intend to get it back a week or 2 later to send it to some RX-8 owners in Germany.

F
Owner of a 2004 SP RX-8 from new. PCM recalibrated and revs to 9000 RPM.
3 Renesis opened and diagnosed so far.

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Post by Clive » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:41 am

Rasputin wrote:^^ Err, what do you call "the third map"??

Good morning,

The RX-8 operates 3 maps within the ECU and the throttle sensor picks up the way the throttle is being applied and their for "picks" a map from one of the 3.


For those who do not understand the word "map" this is in simple terms the dictated calibration ratio of air/fuel mixture that goes into the engine to make it start and operate however the rotary differs from a conventional piston engine because it also needs a percentage of oil injected into it as well which the "map" also dictates.

Mazda know that to make real power on a rotary you need lots of fuel and to get the optimum with this engine and still keep some sort of sensible fuel consumption going on they have developed this 3 map arrangement.

You have probably all experienced that your cars appear to use no oil at all when you have driven your cars "softly" for a length of time and yet it uses oil when you drive aggressively for a period, this is the different maps in operation and why I am concerned that if the map becomes "locked" in its third map mode by this devise then too much oil will be injected into the engine at low revs and cause long term problems.

Sorry to sound so negative ,
All I am saying is be carefull without knowing the long term effects of possibly tampering with the ECU map's especialy as I have found over the years that map alterations on a Rotary are somthing akin to playing with a hand grenade!

p.s I will go away now as I only came here after a member asked me to take a look at this thread



Hope this helps
Kind Regards

Clive
Last edited by Ian.Mothersole on Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: changed post author

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Post by Rasputin » Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:14 am

Moderator: duplicate post and excessive quoting removed.

Production engine management systems are obviuosly a bit confusing for you.
If by "map" you mean "table" (as in fuel table, spark advance table...), then there are hundreds of them, not three.
If by "map", you mean "calibration", then there is only one in the PCM at any one time.

There is a limited numbe of strategiy modules (the strategy = the software that runs in the PCM, and uses data from the calibrations) in the PCM.
The fuel and spark schedule is essentially based on load and engine speed inputs. Then come some corrections for secondary factors (AIT, ECT, KNK, ...).
In normal driving, there are 2 main fuelling modes : close loop, and open loop. Close loop mode uses the lambda sensor (the front one) as a source of feedback for the fuel pulse width. In this mode, the RX-8 run mostly in stoichiometric condition, dictated by the efficiency of the catalyst in this condition. At higher loads, the strategy exits the close loop mode and schedule fuel without feedback. There is a slight fuel enrichment to increase BMEP (ie torque, or power). And that's it for the base fuel strategy.

On top of these, there is a nasty "catalyst protection" module that will prevent your catalyst from overheating. It is set to a max temperature of 970°C on the RX-8 (on mine, anyway). It keeps the catalyst brick cooler than this max temp by massively throwing fuel in the combustion chamber, which (i) reduce the flame temperature and (ii) reduce the exithermal effect of the oxydation in the catalyst.

The MOP is actiuated by a 60-step stepper motor. There is a 2-dim, 17x19 table in the calibration that tells the MOP how much oil should be scheduled as a function of engine speed and load. 60 is the maximum and is only requested at high speeds (>7000 rpm) and loads (> 0.9375). At low speeds and loads, it is goes as low as 3.

Another interesting concept, is the limp-home mode, that is triggered when one of more sensors and/or actuators have failed. The PCM then works from a degraded, and less performing, version of the strategy. It can go from loosing some insignificant strategy modules, until fixed, or a real limp-home enabling to limp along the hard shoulder on the motorway, at 10 MPH up to the next exit. This can happen, for example, when the Electronic Throttle Body completely fails. It then rests in its natural rest position (7° opening, if I remember correctly), dictated by an internal spring, allowing just enough to limp.
To trigger a limp-home mode, there must be an error code created, following the failure of one or more components. And a CEL (check engine light). No code, no limp-home.

Adaptive strategies : some strategy modules have an internal adaptive mode, allowing the PCM some freedom around the original calibration. It's all based on actual measurements. Druck says the ETB control is adaptive. I have found no info on this yet, but it might well be. It's not difficult to implement. However, it will only give a lmited impact on the control. So mittle I personnally did not feel anything driving my RX-8, whereas it is quite obvious on my wife's Lexus (where it also affects the gearbox control, I must admit).

In short :
- I still don't understand what are your 3 maps.
- the Sprint Booster does not modify the PCM calibrations, or any table
- the Sprint Booster only modifies the signal coming from the pedal sensors, without triggering any CEL as it only produce signals that are in the enveloppe of what is allowed.

Does it clarify things for you?

Fabrice
Owner of a 2004 SP RX-8 from new. PCM recalibrated and revs to 9000 RPM.
3 Renesis opened and diagnosed so far.

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Post by Rasputin » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:09 pm

^^ Yes, I could write something about the mysteries of the PCM. I actually already discussed this idea with Harrizone.

I collected some ETB data 2 years ago and could not find anything like that. But then, the way I ran the testing was not the most appropriate to demonstrate the existence of an adaptive strategy. So I will run another ETB test some day, to confirm.

Fabrice
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3 Renesis opened and diagnosed so far.

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Post by Clive » Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:13 am

Rasputin wrote:[In short :
- I still don't understand what are your 3 maps.
- the Sprint Booster does not modify the PCM calibrations, or any table
- the Sprint Booster only modifies the signal coming from the pedal sensors, without triggering any CEL as it only produce signals that are in the enveloppe of what is allowed.

Does it clarify things for you?

Fabrice
Hi Fabrice I can only presume this post was aimed at me!

Real sorry but in simple terms of course there are hundreds and hundreds of cells that make up a full map or as you like to define it a table within a Mazda ECU that obviously controls many many functions including injector duty, split timing and as I keep saying oil metering.

I presume you have spent many hours on Dyno's and obviously at the end of this you arrive at a set program for your ECU that you are happy for your engine to operate with and this is exactly what Mazda have done then they have incorporated another two independent “maps" or as you say "tables" that are accessed via throttle position

You seem to doubt these other two maps existence so when I have time I will contact my Mazda Tech guy for further info.

BTW the limp mode in production ECU’s is nothing new for Mazda as they were using this system as long ago as 1988 in RX-7 TII’s

p.s. please do not think this is an attack on your knowledge but please be clear that the only reason I have posted is to make sure this devise has no long term detrimental effects on these engines.
If you are 100% happy with your Statement above that this is safe then so be it.

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Post by Rasputin » Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:53 am

^^ I have no doubts there are many other tables accessed by TP. You still have told me what they do, these particular 2 tables you're talking about.

I'm not sure Maztech will be able to clarify this, as I don't see any Europe based Mazda technician with powertrain calibration or engine management strategy experience. And eventhough the strategy was developped by Denso, it's not by their Coventry operation.

I'll have a look at the Maztech training book for the RX-8 in the morning, but I doubt I'll find any clarification of what you mean with these 2 tables.

F
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3 Renesis opened and diagnosed so far.

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Post by fnegroni » Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:19 pm

Try getting in touch with some technical guy at AstraRacing in Italy.
They have had several goes at changing the maps in the stock ECU and have been quite succesful apparently.

Here is his contact rreginato at astraracing.com

In the mean time, I think I understand where the "learning throttle control" idea came from.

What Druck may have read during the launch of the RX-8 by Mazda, is that the Automatic transmission version of the RX-8 is equipped with the TCM module which has been standard on all Auto mazdas since 2003.
My automatic mazda6 has one.

It is the (automatic)Transmission Control Module with Adaptive Strategy, which works by learning the driving pattern of the user and changes shifting strategy based on it.

Infact, when i occasionally drive my wifes mazda6, I can tell it has to readapt to my driving style, and yes, it can take a few days for it to relearn the best strategy.

See this bulletin (as usual from our favourite delaer in Arlington, Virginia) http://www.finishlineperformance.com/ma ... s/0028.pdf

There have been a few bulletins about this module though because mazda's original programming is quite aggressive and can feel a bit too harsh sometimes, in trying to anticipate some gear shifts.

If any of that technology has been incorporated in the PCM on the manual RX-8 I don't know. But there's some food for thought.
Last edited by fnegroni on Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I sold the RX-8, I got a Volvo.

What's wrong with me?! :-(

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Post by Rasputin » Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:27 pm

^^ PCM recalibration is not the subject of the topic, although the last few posts could be misleading. :wink:

I've been in contact with Alex, from Astra Racing a few times, and even met him twice in Spa. He showed to me what he can change in the PCM calibration. Interesting, but not what I'd be looking for.

F
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3 Renesis opened and diagnosed so far.

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Post by Rasputin » Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:12 pm

Dirtyleeds,

I need you address to ship the spint booster for you to test.
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3 Renesis opened and diagnosed so far.

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Post by dirtyleeds » Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:17 pm

Rasputin, you have PM.

Had to pull out of the trail I'm afraid. Sorry.
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Post by Rasputin » Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:09 pm

^^ I read it and I'm surprised you're put off by someone who obviously knows nothing about engine management systems.

I'd really like Clive to come back here and explain what he thinks he wanted to tell us about this 3rd map... I'll get him on his forum.
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3 Renesis opened and diagnosed so far.

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Post by fnegroni » Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:12 pm

I don't mind giving it a go instead, since all it does is making the throttle more responsive.
I'll read the previous posts to see what's involved in installing it.
I sold the RX-8, I got a Volvo.

What's wrong with me?! :-(

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Post by Rasputin » Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:18 pm

^^ Please send you address by PM to me.

Fabrice
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3 Renesis opened and diagnosed so far.

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Post by fnegroni » Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:23 pm

you've been PM'd :-)
I sold the RX-8, I got a Volvo.

What's wrong with me?! :-(

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Post by Rasputin » Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:29 pm

^^ It's going to leave from Luxembourg rapidly.
You can keep it a week or so to test it.

Fabrice
Owner of a 2004 SP RX-8 from new. PCM recalibrated and revs to 9000 RPM.
3 Renesis opened and diagnosed so far.

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