Clutch Judder and vibration.

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Pioneer44
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Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by Pioneer44 »

Hi,

I have a series 1 that has clutch judder upon setting off which is only obvious when the car has fully warmed up. Also, when idling (again fully warmed up) there is an excessive amount of vibration felt through the car which disappears once the engine is revved. The engine idles, starts and runs as it should.

I assume the problem is being caused by worn/leaking or collapsed engine mounts and after placing the car on axle stands I`ve gently lifted the engine on each side of the sump with a trolley jack (wood between) and can see around 10mm movement on the drivers side mount and maybe slightly less on the passenger side. Does this sound like sufficient movement to be causing the problem as all rubber mounts have a certain amount of "settle" ? The rear gearbox bracket/mount seems good and there is no movement of the gear lever under load.

If the engine mounts are the problem can anyone recommend a supplier ? I`d rather not fit Polybushes as from experience they are too hard for normal road use and the car is totally original - apart from a Decat.

Many thanks,

David.
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by warpc0il »

Visual inspection is the easiest way to check the engine mounts, as there's a slot that constrains the total movement.

If the extended part of the mount is already resting against one side of the slot, then it's knackered.
See here viewtopic.php?f=25&t=27054&hilit=engine+mounts

Personally I would recommend fitting the latest version of the genuine Mazda mounts,
e.g. https://www.mazdarotaryparts.com/GENUIN ... -MOUNTINGS

or these alternatives
https://www.ryanrotaryperformance.com/s ... ine-mounts
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Pioneer44 (Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:37 am)
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Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by GreySilver Beast »

Hi David & :welcome: to the RX-8OC :thumleft:

Please check out the EVENTS SECTION's :thumleft: - Events Team
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Pioneer44 (Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:38 am)
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by Shagrington »

Hi and :welcome: Pioneer44. :D It looks like warpcOil has already answered all your questions and provided any links you might need. =D>
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Pioneer44 (Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:38 am)
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by Pioneer44 »

Hi All.

Thankyou for the warm welcome and explanation/diagrams/pictures of the series 1 engine mounts. I did check FAQ`s before posting this thread and searched for "Engine mounts" when all the information I required is actually filed under "Idle vibration and engine mounts". Oh well !

With the help of the photo`s and explanations you`ve kindly supplied I`ve rechecked the mounts this morning and found the drivers side mount is completely knackered as its lip is sitting on the cut out and the passenger side is not far from touching, so I`ll order a new pair and that should stop the vibration and clutch judder. The mounts presently fitted appear to be original to the car which is a 2004 with 76K on it so they`re ready for changing and while awaiting the new mounts I`m allowing the 3 nuts/bolts per side to soak in WD40 to save too many four letter words when the time comes to undo them.

Once agian many thanks to the members who`ve taken the time to assist in isolating the problem, this forum seems a friendly place. I`m new to RX8`s having been a BMW 3 series owner for the last 20 years but after driving a friends RX recently it put such a huge smile on my face that the present BMW (328ci) seems uninvolving by comparison and won`t go round corners anything like the RX ! I`ve always had a soft spot for Mazda`s as my first car was a Mazda 323 RWD, which gives my age away somewhat !

David.
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by warpc0il »

The engine mounts were modified over the years of production, so your early car not only has time and mileage against it but it was also fitted with the original version.

Either of the options in my previous response should last you at least another 20 years.
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by Shagrington »

As you say you haven't had it long and that you're new to RX-8s it would be wrong of me not give you my list of tips (just in case there is anything here you didn't know and that might help).
Have a good read through whatever in the FAQ section you didn't already read :study: and then (and just ignore me if you know all this already) here are my best tips for keeping it all running sweetly:

1. To start up turn the key to position 2, wait for most of the lights on the dash to go out (I watch the airbag light by the glove box), press the clutch to the floor (optional, but reduces drag), turn the key to start and do not touch the throttle until it has started. You can drive off straight away, just keep the revs down for a bit (see #4 below).

2. Never [-X turn off the engine before it has reached at least somewhere towards normal operating temperature (should only take a minute or two, but best to go for a short drive if just swapping cars round on the drive etc). Switching off cold risks flooding, which is a real :censored: with a rotary engine. Mazda recommend rev to 4k and hold it for 8-10 seconds switching off while still revving if you have no option but to switch off cold (it is not necessary to do this in any other circumstance).

3. Check the oil level regularly (use the dipstick - the oil gauge tells you nothing other than that you have or don't have pressure) and top up if necessary with semi synthetic 5w30 (most people and specialists are advising to use 10w40 now though) ... small amounts at a time, no more than ½ a litre then check the level again before adding more as you don't want to overfill it.

4. Use all the revs once the engine is nice and warm (don't sit idling to warm up, start up and drive but keep it below about 4k until the needle on the water temperature gauge is pointing straight up, then give it another 10 minutes for the oil to warm up too before really thrashing it :twisted: ) and hit the beep often. Best acceleration is from 4k revs up - to pull away you really need to rev to 2k - you can let the revs drop after lifting the clutch if you are in traffic, cruising steadily at 3½k revs and changing down to go up hills or accelerate gets you the best mpg ... which still won't be great. ;)

5. Join the club for discounts on all sorts of things (you will very quickly get the cost of membership back - and then some), loads more info in the members only sections, local meets (or if you can't find one exactly local it is a good excuse for a drive if you come to one a bit further away), a sexy keyring just for joining and more. :thumright:
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Pioneer44 (Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:28 am)
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by Pioneer44 »

Hi Shagrington,

Thankyou for your tips on keeping an RX running sweetly.

The friend I previously mentioned whose RX I drove a few months ago has advised the same starting/driving procedures as you having owned 2 and a couple of RX7`s. I understand the Rotary engine needs to be treated with care regarding temperature, oil level and starting/stopping procedure, but rewards highly when fully warm and revved to its beep !

The example I`ve bought has covered 76K with a fully stamped service history, every previous MOT, stacks of paperwork for work & parts fitted including an uprated starter, Coil packs, Sparkplugs, HT leads, Decat and clutch at 69K. Apart from the tired engine mounts (which should be fitted in a couple of days) I`ve changed the oil filter and oil which after reading lots of opinions as to what type decided on a Semi-synthetic 10w-40. It seems (famous last words) to be a well cared for example with a perfect interior and just some age related marks/scrapes - even has the Sunroof, Satnav, heated Black leather and looks stunning in Winning Blue (after half a bottle of Autoglym).

Once the engine mounts are changed I`m looking forward to enjoying the car on the B roads of Derbyshire which it seems to be perfectly suited to. The 328ci BMW I`ve owned for many years is more suited to Motorway/A roads and although a lovely, smooth car to drive the RX has a bigger grin factor and is less of a handful, the BM being hard work to wrestle on the twisty bits.

Joining the RX8 Owners Club seems an excellent way to meet like minded people and I`m all for saving money on replacement parts.

Thanks again,

David.
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by Pioneer44 »

Hi All,

After fitting the newly supplied pair of engine mounts, which was a relatively task easy once the nuts/bolts had time to soak in WD40 and removing the audio dash unit to rectify an intermittent power failure by cleaning the multiplug connections with Servisol, the sun was shining and I couldn`t resist taking her out for some fun.

Unfortunately after around half an hour and approx` 20 miles the clutch judder has returned. At this point the car becomes virtually impossible to move away in first without the engine violently bouncing on its mounts, in reverse it seems to be even more pronounced. The new replacement engine mounts were supplied by an Ebay seller in Plymouth who says he`s sold over 30 pairs without issue. I`ll contact him to advise of the present problem.

Are there any other known causes for clutch judder on the 8 ? I`d considered the possibility of a contaminated clutch plate which would show similar symptoms but surely that would be present at all times and not just when the car is fully warm ? According to the service history the clutch was replaced 7000 miles ago and feels ok.

The other previous problem with vibration through the car when idling has now gone as the original engine mounts - especially the drivers side - were ready for replacement.

And just to complete an extremely disappointing first outing the audio unit (clock, temp & CD player) continues to switch on and off at will even after removing the black fascia front plate, cleaning the connectors and slightly bending the four screw tabs for an improved electrical connection.

Any suggestions ?
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by warpc0il »

Okay let me see if I understand correctly

There is some improvement in vibration but the clutch judder remains - worse when hot, even worse in reverse?
Do you know what clutch was fitted? Some aftermarket clutches, e.g. Blue Print and and unbranded can destroy themselves when fitted to an 8. The problem being worse in reverse would match with one of those failure modes.

The audio unit, does the sound go on/off or just the display?
If just the display, try pushing the heel of your hand firmly against the section just below, as there's an edge connector that sometimes has a problem. More common in hot weather or if the car is parked in the sun.
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by Pioneer44 »

You understand correctly. I don`t know what make of clutch was fitted, the service book (and receipt) only says a new clutch kit was fitted at 69k. If your diagnosis that the clutch has failed and will need replacement proves to be accurate then that would be a great concern as presumably because the clutch was fitted 2 years ago it`s out of warranty. Also, the only way to confirm the clutch plate/cover has failed is to remove the gearbox and while removed may as well fit a new good quality clutch.

Both the sound and display go on/off with the audio unit.
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by Shagrington »

If the clutch does need replacing here is the one you'll need for a 192 https://www.mazdarotaryparts.com/RX8-Cl ... 192-Models
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by Pioneer44 »

Thankyou for the link to a supplier of a good quality clutch kit as having just found the full printout for the supply of the clutch presently fitted I`ve discovered it was from Andrew Page in Preston and states "Premium clutch kit" at a cost of £115 plus VAT in November 2016 with mileage listed as 68,880 which is less than 8000 miles ago.

It seems the only option is to replace the complete clutch with a higher quality type as presumably the clutch plate presently fitted has failed due to compressed/weak springs which is causing the judder. I`m assuming the springs become weak(er) once the full heat of the engine & gearbox has conducted through to the clutch plate and cover. There doesn`t seem any other possible reason for the juddering as having further researched the issue the fact that the symptoms are worse in reverse seem to confirm this ?

If I was a few years younger I`d change the clutch myself and also from further research the 8 clutch swap can be quite a difficult job so I need to find someone loacally who isn`t afraid of Mazda rotary engined cars. Any recommendations in the North Derbyshire area.
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by ChrisHolmes »

You may find that the flywheel has blue heat spots on resulting from slipping the clutch from simply not enough pressure in the unit or someone riding the clutch.
A new Exedy unit from one of the rotary specialists mentioned on here will see you right. Racing Beat ( Northfleet) Rotary Revs (Birstall) Ryan Rotary Performance (Rugby) LC Rotary (Orpington) Essex Rotary (Thurrock)
or I can send you a good used Exedy cover and plate for a good price if you PM me your contact details.
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by PeteH »

Yep, £115 is a dirt cheap clutch. They have a long history of not being up to the job in an RX8.
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by Pioneer44 »

The car has now had an Exedy clutch fitted.

Upon inspection of the "Blueprint" clutch previously fitted the plate springs are loose in their housing, while the fingers on the cover appear ok the release bearing is also rough when spun. So I'd imagine the loose springs become more so when heated which was causing the violent clutch judder after 20 minutes or so driving.

Thankyou for the advice and recommendation of an Exedy clutch that seems the only sensible option to fit in an 8, which has been proved by the cheapo poor quality Blueprint failing after 7k.

I`ve also purchased and fitted a new audio unit which should hopefully cure the previous intermittent operation. Just to confirm the bass,treble,fader,balance, beep settings are stored once input ?

The car was good fun driving back from the clutch installer on damp roads and felt more sure footed and easier to correct if out of shape than the previous BMW 328ci which is much more of a handfull.

So hopefully now the clutch is good, the sounds are fixed and she`s serviced and ready to go the weather will improve and the entertainment can begin ! Oh, and just need to sort the newly found condensation in the o/s rear light assembly !
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by warpc0il »

Good to hear you've got the clutch sorted and we were correct in our assessment of the Blue Print product.
The Exedy should be good for 80k or more.

The audio bass, treble, fader, balance, beep settings are stored once input, as are the channel presets, until the next time you disconnect the battery.
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by Pioneer44 »

Took the car out for a drive yesterday afternoon only to discover there`s a problem with the newly installed Exedy clutch. After around 20 miles or so of driving the clutch pedal has developed a pulsating mild vibration through the pedal which is evident throughout its complete travel. The action of the clutch is ok with gear selection smooth and none of the original clutch judder any more.

As this pulsating pedal was not evident with the previous clutch the only conclusion can be that the new Exedy cover,plate or bearing is faulty. Now for the worrying part; I purchased the new clutch from a company called "Techniclutch" in Blackpool via Ebay and Paypal, BUT having just read the Google and Trustpilot reviews about this company it appears they are a con artists selling poor quality or possibly fake items. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I obviously should have checked before purchase. The issue now will be returning the faulty clutch which due to its weight will be very expensive and although Ebay or maybe Paypal will refund me I`m going to be left to pay for another clutch to be fitted along with removing the faulty Exedy. Incidently, I checked the Exedy clutch upon receipt and it was in Exedy packaging although the bearing was in a seperate sealed white plastic bag.

Has anyone here had any dealings with "Techniclutch" and have I any claim to them paying the labour costs to remove and refit ? Obviously I won`t be buying another clutch from them.

On a slightly more positive note the new audio unit works well and the foggy rear light lens was down to incorrectly fitted bulb holders but I`m beginning to suspect I wasn`t meant to have an RX8 as in 20 years of owning 3 series BMW`s I`ve never experienced any problems like this - ever. I understand it`s not the fault of the Mazda but all these issues are beginning to dull my enthusiasm.
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by Pioneer44 »

The car has now been taken to a clutch fitting specialist who has confirmed the release bearing is failing which is causing the pedal vibrations and having driven the car for a hundred miles or so there is also noise now coming from it.

I contacted Techniclutch in Blackpool to advise the release bearing is failing and they offered to supply another one with a 50% discount ! I`ve also been in touch with Exedy UK who want the whole clutch sent to them and if they decide it`s faulty they will give a warranty claim payment towards labour of £20 per hour which equates to £80 in total as it took 4 hours to fit the new Exedy !! Mean while the car will be sat waiting for Exedy to decide !

My personal opinion is that the Exedy clutch kit had a genuine plate and cover while the release bearing (supplied in a plain white plastic bag) is a low cost item of inferior quality which has now failed. I guess the moral of the story is don`t buy clutches off the internet from sellers with terrible feedback (check Google and Trustpilot), or possibly it is an Exedy bearing and it`s just bad luck

The release bearing obviously needs to be replaced but I`m unsure whether to replace the whole clutch while it`s stripped down with a Valeo (depending if the release bearing is a genuine Exedy) or just the bearing. I`ve used Valeo in my Landrover and in a previous BMW with no problem.
Last edited by Pioneer44 on Wed May 29, 2019 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by qwakers »

valeo dont make a clutch for the rx8. exedy is the genuine supplier for the 8 and is the ONLY clutch that should be fitted, (unless you are fitting a competition spec clutch) get a bearing from mazda rotary parts, rotary revs, ryan rotary perfomance etc, and as long as the clutch isnt damaged, just swap it
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by Pioneer44 »

Ok thanks for the advice, I`ll get a new bearing from one of the reputable suppliers you recommend and have it fitted.

I mentioned the Valeo option as the local motor factors advised they can supply such a clutch kit for an 8, but they`ve obviously got confused. They also assured me that Exedy and LUK are exactly the same.

It will be interesting to inspect the failed bearing and see if it shows any manufacturers mark to confirm it`s an Exedy or not.
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by Pioneer44 »

The car was taken to a well respected local garage who service repair classic & sportscars and after speaking at length with one of their technicians it was decided to remove the gearbox and see exactly what was happening with the clutch. However, they drove the car and said they thought the clutch was ok but incorrectly adjusted so corrected the setting and bled the system (the supposed release bearing noise was infact a slightly noisy lay shaft bearing) and advised it was false economy to remove the gearbox.

So, the upshot was I continued to drive the car with the Exedy clutch which although it felt better after adjustment and bleeding it still didn`t feel as easy and progressive as the one fitted to a friend`s 8. It always felt slightly lumpy but all gears are easily selected and there is no judder.

As the car is only used for fun on high days and holidays, over the winter its done less than 500 miles since the clutch was deemed ok but I`m experiencing another issue in that if I set off at the bottom of a hill and accelerate as hard as possible from standstill in 1st then change into 2nd at the redline there appears to be a half a second lag as if the clutch is slipping (the rev counter doesn`t rise to indicate slippage) or the TC has momentarily cut power. This only occurs 1st to 2nd under full power with no grinding noises or jumping out of gear and only up a steep hill under full throttle/power. Could this be the TC cutting in ? but I`ve not noticed the dashboard light illuminating - perhaps I should attempt the full power hill ascent with the TC switched off and see if the lag is still evident ?


The Exedy clutch has always felt sharp (either in or out), not as light or smooth as the previously fitted Blueprint and I`ve never been really happy with it, I`m now wondering what to do ? Does anyone have any thoughts or experience of the symptoms I`m experiencing ? Are Exedy clutches heavier in operation than a Blueprint premium type ? Does TC intervention sound like the problem ?

On a more positive note that apart from the recent 1st to 2nd gear issue the car is a joy to drive, always starts 1st time even after several weeks sat out in the rain, starts 1st time when hot and offers a far more involving experience than any of the BMW 3 series I`ve previously owned, passed its MOT 1st time and has developed no other faults.
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by qwakers »

blueprint (premium or otherwise) are absolute garbage and should not be used as a benchmark

the exedy will be sharper and heavier, especially if its one of the performance versions, it all sounds fine to me, especially as the garage also thinks its ok.
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by Pioneer44 »

Thankyou Qwakers for your quick response.

So is it normal for a slight lag between 1st & 2nd up a steep hill under full throttle, is it the TC kicking in if the road surface was maybe slightly damp ? Would switching off the TC/DSC completely stop the lag and show as wheelspin instead ? I`ve never driven the car without TC/DSC switched on.
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Re: Clutch Judder and vibration.

Post by qwakers »

its possible. i would say, though, its not clutch related.

to diagnose a issue like that, id have to drive the car.
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