What is a D585 coil?

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What is a D585 coil?

Post by PeteH » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:00 pm

Yes, I know..... Bear with me..... I have often wondered about the D585 coils. What they really are. What their original source is. And what the options are. So I've been doing a bit of research.

Firstly, I'm not a coil expert, and there are people on here that know far more than I do, so anyone please feel free to chip in with amendments and suggestions. All I ask is that this thread is kept "clean" from people commenting about how good or bad their particular coils are. It won't help anyone if these thread becomes just another "coils thread"......

Secondly, what follows is very specifically a look at the sources and supply options for the D585 coil, and its competitors in the aftermarket. It is not a technical look at the D585 coil. And it is not a review of the various coil options for the RX-8. My personal view is that the RRP Mark 2 coil is probably the highest performing coil available for the RX-8, and is likely to be a very reliable option. The Mazda version C, and the D585 kit from Rotary Revs are also good options. But, if you are brave, don't mind making your own brackets, and sourcing your own adaptor leads, and don't mind taking a punt, then the following might give you some ideas for how to put your own coil pack together for your rex. But I won't be using any of the following.....

The 'daddy', the D585, is the ACDelco code for the coil they supply in the aftermarket for the Gen 3 LS small block Chevrolet Truck engine (also called the Vortec). The engine was manufactured between about 1995 and 2007, and it is important to note that these coils were only used in the truck. The car derivatives (including the Corvette) used different coils. ACDelco is owned by General Motors, and so the coil supplied to the aftermarket is likely to be identical to the OE coil used by GM. Note that the OEM part numbers for this coil are 10457730 and 190005218 (I don't know the difference, but there may have been some upgrade at some point). The coil also appears to be listed as a Delphi GN10119. Delphi and ACDelco were essentially the same company during this period, so the GN10119 is likely to be the same product.

Note that ACDelco also list a coil for this engine with the code number BS-C1251. This coil can be identified by its black resin, rather than the white resin of the D585. It seems that the D585 is the better coil.

Other people make aftermarket coils as direct replacements for the D585. Many of these are by respected US, UK, and German manufacturers. There are, no doubt, plenty of "Chinese fake coils" around as well, so buyer beware! Apparently legitimate suppliers include:

Herko. This is a quality US manufacturer. They list three options. The B045HE seems to be their best option (HE stand for High Output). This coil is red (which is obviously important!). The B045 is their standard offering (it's black, so not as fast). They also quote a CD585, but it's not in their current catalogue, so I don't know what this is. I think Nutty-Chappie supplies the B045HE.

Wells. These are also a long-standing, quality, US manufacturer. They list the C1251 (which is the same code as the "non-preferred" ACDelco coil, so this may not be the best option?). Edit: Wells may now be part of the NGK group, and the NGK code for D585 coils is U5183

Mobiletron. A UK manufacturing company that you have probably never heard of! They have been around for about 20 years, and supply mostly to the OE. Their version of the D585 is called the CG-41. They also do a direct plug-and-play RX-8 coil, code CF-70, which cost about £40, and would seem to be a legitimate option.

Bremi. A German manufacturing company that you have probably never heard of!. They have been around for a long time. Their version of the D585 is called the 20410.

MSD. MSD do a direct copy of the D585, which has the code "Street Fire 5509". They also do a high-end version called the "Pro Power 8286". MSD are expensive, but high quality and very respected. RRP market MSD coils, which may be the 8286, although I'm not sure, which is the "Pro Power 8287". The 8287 is actually MSD's high-end version of the "LS3" coils (ACDelco call it the D514). The LS3 was the car (and sometimes truck) version of the V8 fitted from about 2005 to about 2013, including the Corvette. So the D514 and MSD 8287 are essentially the successor coils to the D585.

Airtex. This is an often-quoted replacement for the D585, and comes with the code number 5C1082. There isn't much info on Airtex, so who knows... Edit. Airtex may once have been the same company as Wells.

Standard Motor Products (SMPE). This is a US vendor for high volume parts. Their version of this coil has the code UF262.

Denso. A well respected manufacturer. Their version is called the 673-7101

BorgWarner. Another well respected manufacturer. Theirs is called the E254

Beck / Arnley is a division of Federal-Mogul, and they are a volume parts supplier, rather than manufacturer. Their part number is 178-8399. It appears to be a bit of a 'no-name special', so it may be fine.....

Hitachi and Hueco both use the code 134034 for their version. Who knows where these come from, although you assume Hitachi should be legit. (Note that Isuzu also used the D585, so I guess they may have sourced it from Hitachi????)

Final note:
All of the above are either branded coils, or coils from legitimate sources, and therefore "should" be reputable. But all brands can be faked, so don't assume that just because eBay tells you it's "Brand X" that you are really getting a genuine version.
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by V8 Power » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:11 pm

Interesting info Pete.
The Mobiletron CF-70 at £40 has intrigued me. I wonder if anyone knowingly has experience of these?
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by plas87 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:17 pm

What about Black Halo Racing coils? They are apparently the original "D585" coils for the RX-8?
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by Conan » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:38 pm

plas87 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:17 pm
What about Black Halo Racing coils? They are apparently the original "D585" coils for the RX-8?
I don’t think black halo racing make coils, they use an existing coil.
I had to read the post several times myself which is a good idea for people to do.
I think it may be in the threads interest to delete both mine and yours response :thumleft:
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by PeteH » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:59 pm

BHR are own-brand coils. The internals may be (or may have been, since they have recently changed) based on standard D585 coils, but BHR don't tell us anything about the source.

So I'd class these as RX-8 coils, rather than D585 clones.

(Sorry Pete, your post popped up when I posted mine. I'm happy to leave these posts, because they are on-topic contributions :thumleft: )
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by PeteH » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:36 am

I've added a few more details about RRP's high-end MSD coil kit. It's the MSD 8287, which is MSD's version of the D514. The D514 was essentially the follow up to the D585, and was the coil fitted to the 2005 to 2013 Corvette (among many other cars).

Also note, BHR say that both the first generation, and the just-released next generation of their coils are both "D585".
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by HwAoRrDk » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:05 pm

It should be noted that Wells are these days part of NGK Spark Plugs USA (since 2015, I think), so they no longer market their ignition coils under the Wells brand name, but rather as NGK. The NGK part number for a D585-compatible ignition coil is U5183.

I think also Airtex and Wells used to be the same company at one point, but no longer.
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by boosted » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:38 pm

Ive always though it strange that the aftermarket solution is a coil from a v8 truck...that was never designed to spark as many times per minute as the rx8 coil...id have thought that a coil from a high revving motorcycle would have been the solution..
There were some sums somewhere that the individual coils at 9k sparked at...it was eye watering...cant remember now.
Who makes the oem coils for Mazda? I believe it was Hitachi...but then again dont believe everything you read online.

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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by 13Black » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:00 pm

In a way it doesn't matter what vehicle a part was designed for.

It's a common option to use Audi R8 ignition coils for some highly boosted applications due to their awesome spark strength.
It's not often you get a part that is designed for precisely the demand it will get as standard and nothing more, to save a few pence. It's easier to over-spec something than have it break on every 300,000 cars they're fitted to and recall them.

Injectors for example have quite a bit of headroom in them.
MX-5 gearboxes as you know will withstand double the torque they were intended to take.
Celica cranks are meant to be totally solid and take way more power than they would have reasonably been assumed to be subjected to.

Case in point is Rev A coils. "Designed" for 9k but look at how terrible they were.
Some D585s have lasted 6-figure mileage.
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by PeteH » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:16 pm

With a rotary 1 rev = 1 spark, so it's 9000 sparks a minute. That gives 6.7ms per event, which is why dwell times and duty cycles are such a problem.

The LS2 truck engine has a maximum speed of 6000rpm, and each coil fires once for every two revolutions. That is 3000 sparks a minute, or 20ms per event. With a D585 running maximum dwell (say 5ms), the maximum duty cycle in the truck would be no more than 25% at maximum engine revs. They will last forever.

Even bike coils are going to struggle. It would have to be a coil that is happy at 18,000 to 20,000rpm in a piston engine.

(But all this assumes you are driving down the motorway in 2nd gear.... Which is why we can generally get away with it.)
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by boosted » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:31 pm

So a 150 sparks a second...its amazing anything can withstand that abuse..but yes not many 8s buzz around at 9k all the time...

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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by nightfire10 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:05 pm

but yes not many 8s buzz around at 9k all the time.. is this why i only get about 170 miles per tank ? :roll: :race:
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by 13Black » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:06 pm

But then again the dwell times on a standard RX-8 map are equally as tiny in that region, about 1.5ms charging over a 6.7ms cycle, absolutely bugger all really.

Well, 25% duty, which coincidentally is what the trucks will see at their rev limiter, and will apazz last a lifetime at that.
It's not just the RX-8 world where they've been a go-to option for performance and longevity.
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by PeteH » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:55 pm

You've got your defensive pants on Nick.

No-one's saying the D585 is a bad coil. I run them, with my 10k rev limiter, and a map that pushes them.

Your point is valid, but it is also true that with a 1.5ms dwell the coil is only putting out about one third of the energy it is capable of. If that energy is still enough to fire the plug effectively then that might be just fine. But I can't help feeling that a coil which can take a higher duty cycle, and therefore carry a larger dwell, and charges quicker, so gives more energy at that dwell setting, is going to be a better option for anyone that regularly uses lots of revs.

My personal choice for my next engine will be AEMs, which produce more energy on just a 3ms dwell, and can carry a permanent duty cycle of 40%. For me that sounds like a safe coil to run up to 10k. But on a road car I'd be perfectly happy with D585s.

I should also say that RRP's "Mark 2" coil specification also looks very capable. I'd probably be happy to fit those as well, if it didn't mean I would be the "guinea pig" for them in a racing application.....
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by qwakers » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:08 pm

PeteH wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:55 pm
I should also say that RRP's "Mark 2" coil specification also looks very capable. I'd probably be happy to fit those as well, if it didn't mean I would be the "guinea pig" for them in a racing application.....
i think you'll find that guinea pig (might) be me :mrgreen: haven't decided yet !
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by 13Black » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:11 pm

Not as much as you perhaps think (today's pants are my sassy ones, I'll have you know.)
Just stating why parts can exceed their original design criteria. Even the gearboxes for these old things I work on, started out on the single-seater bikes, but were also later fitted to cars carrying multiple passengers without issue. It's happened since day 1 of motoring. An early copy of a Renault design also used one of these bike engines for a small car for 2x adults.

OEM FD coils have proven to be up to the job even at stupid power levels, and these are parts from early 90s cars that only made approx 280hp from factory - hardly sounds much more exotic than modern V8 trucks, so no real reason to doubt AC Delco's efforts :D yanks do love to crank their V8s up after all.

Of course there are more capable coils out there than relatively cheap ones mass produced for trucks.
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by Eddie_r32 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:15 pm

qwakers wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:08 pm
PeteH wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:55 pm
I should also say that RRP's "Mark 2" coil specification also looks very capable. I'd probably be happy to fit those as well, if it didn't mean I would be the "guinea pig" for them in a racing application.....
i think you'll find that guinea pig (might) be me :mrgreen: haven't decided yet !
So far mine mine has done nearly 300 miles of flat out track driving so it was me, I was the guinea pig :p
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by warpc0il » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:22 pm

For me the concern isn't whether a "real" D585 coil is up to the job, even though the maths suggests that it may be suboptimal at max revs.

The problem is that so many people assume that any "D585 coil", even those knocked-out @$8 a pop from China, are somehow an upgrade compared to the Mazda coils.

I'm currently running the original BHR D585 kit and have been since about 2010, coincidently just before Mazda released their C-spec coils.

What would I fit today, if I needed to replace them?
Either C-spec oem or RRP MkII - however I would need the dwell mini-map reversed first #-o
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by Velocity_Dan93 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:46 pm

warpc0il wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:22 pm
For me the concern isn't whether a "real" D585 coil is up to the job, even though the maths suggests that it may be suboptimal at max revs.
8) 8) 8) agreed, but like everything its application dependant. 99% of the time 585 or even an ebay variant of it is better than whatever people are running when they get the car. I think BHR are going to be releasing an in house designed coil in the near future though.....might just be a re-branded RRP coil, would explain why they run out of stock so quickly :lol:
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by Eddie_r32 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:29 am

Velocity_Dan93 wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:46 pm
warpc0il wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:22 pm
For me the concern isn't whether a "real" D585 coil is up to the job, even though the maths suggests that it may be suboptimal at max revs.
8) 8) 8) agreed, but like everything its application dependant. 99% of the time 585 or even an ebay variant of it is better than whatever people are running when they get the car. I think BHR are going to be releasing an in house designed coil in the near future though.....might just be a re-branded RRP coil, would explain why they run out of stock so quickly :lol:
Bhr are just using a 585 coil in a different housing
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by warpc0il » Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:26 am

They can't be repackaged D585 because JDM PCM loads are very fussy about the electrical characteristics of the coils and won't run with D585s, whatever shape the housing.

BHR claim that their new coils run in a JDM without a CEL, or need to adjust dwell.
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by PeteH » Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:29 am

They do, but they also said on social media that the new coil is still a D585. Now it doesn't need an adaptor harness or different leads, so I'm wondering if it's the details of the wiring that mean it can now run on JDMs.
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by warpc0il » Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:44 am

I wondered if a parallel resistor or some such would be sufficient to keep the PCM thinking that OEM coils were still installed.
However, these "performance coils" would need more power than OEM and therefore proportionally more current already.
Putting a resistor in series could limit the current draw to OEM levels but would also reduce the input voltage to the coils meaning that they wouldn't fully charge.

A separate power connection may be the answer but IIRC the PCM doesn't actually provide the ignition power, just the trigger, and there doesn't appear to be any difference in the JDM loom - certainly the coil connector is the same.

I did some investigation into this a few years ago while trying to work out how to fit D585s onto a JDM but I ran into a brick wall as I couldn't find any information as to what the JDM PCM was looking for and what the tolerances are.
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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by 13Black » Thu May 09, 2019 11:19 am

Interesting shootout of some common ignition coils (including pattern copies) in the tuning world:

See the coil at 8:20 !


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Re: What is a D585 coil?

Post by NeMFO » Sat May 18, 2019 1:33 pm

But of advice please. Would you spend £180 on a set of Rotary Revs D585 coils that you didn’t know the history of? Seems like a very good price to me.

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