Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

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Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by Goobie » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:44 pm

Real world on the road use!

I can't find the thread now but was something along the lines of polly suspension bushes was a waste of time on the RX? Also, standard arms best kept as the RX is fully adjustable as standard.

Any more real world input?


Sway Bays / Anti Roll Bars, I see Racing Beat and Cusco. (Price spend £390 - £450.)

Reading the descriptions for both,-

RB is 32mm thick dia Front with 19mm thick dia.

Cusco is 28mm front with 18mm rear, but I *think is solid bar rather than tubular?

Other options?, feel free to add.

Pros and cons to either and what's worth getting out of the two?


Drop links, adjustable ones worth the time and money? The point of them being adjustable??
Over kill for fast road and maybe track use on an non professional competition level?, or just stick with standard drop links? (Price spend £45 - £200.)


Coilovers.
So much choice, but again, real world on the road use but with the above in mind. (Price spend £680 - £800./ optional EDFC £250.)

Tein Flex Z seem to be a winner around here on this forum, best all around for the price bearing in mind the option to add EDFC controller, or other option worth considering?


So with the above really, what's general all round best with the rough prices marked out on each area for mainly fast road street use with track ready components should needs be?

One last thing, will all these upgrades have any negative effect minus wheel alignment for drifting?

G.

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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by 13Black » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:48 pm

That would be a thread by PeteH regarding polybushes :D
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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by rameshr » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:52 pm

I have bought whiteline arbs and drop links from Essex Rotary. Will let u know once fitted.


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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by warpc0il » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:06 pm

Goobie wrote:Drop links, adjustable ones worth the time and money? The point of them being adjustable??
Over kill for fast road and maybe track use on an non professional competition level?, or just stick with standard drop links? (Price spend £45 - £200.)
In theory, the arbs will be most effective if the angle between the end of the bar and the droplink is at 90°.

The bar is fixed to the body and the bottom of the droplink to the suspension arm, so the angle opens up and as the suspension extends and closes as the suspension compresses. This means that you want the static angle to be around 90°.

When you lower the suspension the static angle becomes less than 90°, unless you also shorten the droplinks to compensate, hence the advantage of adjustable droplinks.

However, in the real world there's a lot of leeway in the 90° and the only critical concern is that, on full compression, the angle doesn't close so much that the joint locks. Even fitting lowering springs to the OEM suspension units, this can't happen.

If you fit an aftermarket coilover kit then it is possible to run the car so low that the angle between the arb and the droplinks become too acute and you'd need adjustable links to compensate, assuming that you actually intend to drop to the limit.

The Racing Beat ARB kit used to come with high quality fixed drop links, at least it did when I fitted mine, but when we fitted the same kit to Ray's car a couple of years later, that came with adjustable links.

The OEM links are very fragile and prone to failure, especially when over-stressed by jacking one corner of the car high in the air with the rest on the ground, or just hitting a nasty pothole.
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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by Goobie » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:17 pm

13Black wrote:That would be a thread by PeteH regarding polybushes :D
Il search his post later, thanks.

rameshr wrote:I have bought whiteline arbs and drop links from Essex Rotary. Will let u know once fitted.
Great, thanks.

Anyone with recommendations, please state best place to source part/s and price as will greatly great help and for future use to other to.

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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by Goobie » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:25 pm

warpc0il wrote:
In theory, the arbs will be most effective if the angle between the end of the bar and the droplink is at 90°.

When you lower the suspension the static angle becomes less than 90°, unless you also shorten the droplinks to compensate, hence the advantage of adjustable droplinks.


The OEM links are very fragile and prone to failure, especially when over-stressed by jacking one corner of the car high in the air with the rest on the ground, or just hitting a nasty pothole.
Excellent post, these pointers alone makes them seem more than worthy purchase.

Could any old adjustable drop links be used or would they need to be make and model persific?

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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by warpc0il » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:38 pm

They have to have the correct sized holes, or larger if you're prepared to drill out the arb/arms and fit fatter bolts.

They also need to be the correct length, as the adjustment range is quite small, usually only about an 1" between min and max.

Buying them from a trusted source, listed as fitting the RX8, should avoid any issues.
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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by PeteH » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:53 pm

The RB rear anti-roll bar is 19mm, and tubular (standard is 16mm tubular). It doesn't sound much, but it makes the bar very much stiffer. I think you are right that the Whiteline is solid. Oddly, the RB 19mm tubular bar is probably stiffer than the Whiteline solid bar, but the RB bar weighs about half as much. That's why tubular bars are so good. I'd definitely go with RB. The best, and only place worth getting them from is Clive at MRP.

I talked about most of these things in various threads, so I'll try not to be boring (who said "too late" :ninja: ). Solid drop links are fine. I run them. Get decent ones though. The angle that Dave mentioned tends to just make the bar a bit stiffer, which is what you are after anyway, so don't worry. Adjustable arb links are 70% bling, 30% function!

If I was doing a fast road car I'd probably go with RB front and rear bars, Flex Z coil overs, EDFC, some 9" wheels (but ET45 ish), and the best set of 255 tyres I could afford (semi-slicks for certain). I wouldn't touch the suspension links or front arms. That would be a pretty cool set up I think.
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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by mzivtins » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:59 pm

CoilOvers:
consider Meister R Zeta CRD's. for the money there isn't anything better than those I guess.

ARB's:
Most aggressive seem to be UltraRacing, but RB all round with a good set of coilovers is amazing.

Drop links:
Adjustable ones do tend to be a bit noisy, RB drop links even on a lowered car is fine.

Bushes:
Full polybushing is amazing and worth it.

Arms etc:
Replace the arms all over, everything, tie rod ends the lot. even if you run stock alignment/toe/camber you will feel the difference.

Consider:
Poly diff mounts, always helps get traction down, almost critical to stop tramping/bouncing the rear tyres.
new hubs and bearings all round for the ultimate finishing touch!

Then steer clear completely of any spacers on your wheels!!!

This is real world by the way, all of that above compared with my stock R3 makes the two 8's feel like different cars entirely.

Meister R's, Polybusy, japspeed arms all round, ultra racing arbs with rb drop links:
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As Pete says, that good offset on some nice 19inch wheels 255 tyres with 30 height will keep things awesome without the need for spacers for looks, as the spacers will likely undo all the nice things all this expensive crap will give you :D
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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by Goobie » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:14 pm

mzivtins wrote:
the spacers will likely undo all the nice things all this expensive crap will give you :D
That is some serious spec right there!

Haha, only problem is I really like the standard wheels.

Some really good info being laid out in this thread, no such thing as to much detail etc.

keep it coming guys, it's all very helpful.

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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by mzivtins » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:41 pm

you have an r3 so you can get away with the wheels! 19 inch, not as wide, maybe 245 on them? and everything in moderation... like a 10mm spacer is bad... but like 25mm... holy smokes batman!

The really cool thing about it all is that everything becomes adjustable, so when you lower the car, you can compensate the camber changes etc, plus it feels like a brand new car, albeit way more capable.

I was thinking of doing the same to the R3 but it has to be said that when you can almost feel the change in road surface in you seat, you may destroy the comfort levels of your car!

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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by warpc0il » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:33 pm

I've driven cars with the suspension so hard you could drive over a 50p piece and tell which way up it was, but that didn't make them handle any better on anything less than a perfect surfaced track.

Having everything adjustable makes it possible to get everything wrong, or everything right for one situation and nothing else.

In the real world you need compliance to get the rubber on the road and keep it there.
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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by Goobie » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:40 am

Going back to this.-

"Drop links: Adjustable ones do tend to be a bit noisy, RB drop links even on a lowered car is fine."

Noisy in what way?

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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by Motorracingbruce1980 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:30 am

Any suspension part with a spherical bearing means you have no rubber to dampen noise, they move and knock quite a lot. They also transmit noise more than a rubber bush would so even road noise can be heard more and sometimes even felt through the car.

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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by PeteH » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:38 am

Mazda drop links are spherical joints....

Some spherical joints are plastic sleeved (like the Mazda OE joints), and some are metal sleeved (I think a lot of aftermarket ones will be). Metal ones can have some free play, and will tend to be slightly noisier and more rattley (but the pay off is that they are stronger). But the difference will be marginal, and I'm not sure most people will be able to tell. Bare in mind that the drop link is mounted between a rubber mounted suspension link, and a rubber mounted anti-roll bar, both of which are mounted to a rubber mounted subframe. So the drop links quite well isolated!
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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by Motorracingbruce1980 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:03 am

When I said spherical bearing meaning rose joint hence not saying spherical joint.

This is what I was referring to and was also saying that these type of joints in general can and do cause more noise

Image

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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by PeteH » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:21 am

I know. But there are many different types of spherical joints, and they are all subtly different. You can't even necessarily see the differences from the outside.
- Some spherical joints that look like your picture are literally steel on steel, and they all have some small amount of play, and very little compliance. They can be fairly quiet if they are new and well lubricated. Or they can be quite noisy if dry and loose. The quality of the joint is very much related to the cost of the joint.
- Some spherical joints that also look identical to your picture have PTFE inner linings. In these the ball is an interference fit into the lining, so they have zero free play, but they have a small amount of compliance, and a little bit of friction. These tend to be fairly quiet, but will eventually wear out. These are perhaps the ideal choice for an anti-roll bar link, but are expensive.
- Some spherical joints have nylon liners. These generally don't have free play, but can be sticky, and transmit more high frequency vibrations. They are usually cheaper because the liner can be molded.

Mazda drop links are cheap, plastic lined spherical joints, with lots of friction, quite a lot of compliance, and they are weak. They are not the best design for isolating noise and vibration, but they don't cause a problem on the 8 because of what they are attached to.

Basically, in an anti-roll bar link you are very unlikely to have any noise and vibration issues, regardless of the type of joint you are using.
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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by Goobie » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:30 am

Only really coming up with Racing Beat and Whiteline adjustable drop links. Both adds state they are silent, pictures attach.

Prices are around £100-£110 for a pair, but have just come across these on a MX5 site, around £60 for a pair, also state silent operation. Same fitment as the RX?

Link.-

http://www.mx5parts.co.uk/anti-roll-dro ... XsQAvD_BwE
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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by Goobie » Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:13 pm

Well, kinda a little update on this.

After bit more digging around I went with the Racing Beat set up, i.e. roll/sway bars and adjustable drop links.

Got my kit today thanks to Clive from http://www.mazdarotaryparts.com.

Very helpful and easy to deal with and not forgetting great price too being a fully paid member on here as we receive members discount.

The rear bar looks skinny compared to the front, it's a beast!

Can't wait to go fit my new kit.
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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by wiggles » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:29 pm

Nice :thumright:

Very useful info in this thread.

Looked up the MOT history on my car and it has had advisories about 3 of the 4 drop links in the past :shock: (all then not on there the following year) so going to take a look and probably replace for something better
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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by Goobie » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:40 pm

Drop links failing seem to be very common, more so if lowered for obvious reasons.

Fairly cheap to replace if doing the work your self, but with the info above etc it made sense to go with the adjustable ones especially as I bought upgraded roll bars.

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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by V8 Power » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:39 pm

Are the RB anti roll bars adjustable? I can't see from the image.
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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by Goobie » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:46 pm

V8 Power wrote:Are the RB anti roll bars adjustable? I can't see from the image.
No, but my drop links are, il take some better pictures later.

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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by Goobie » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:09 pm

Goobie wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:46 pm
V8 Power wrote:Are the RB anti roll bars adjustable? I can't see from the image.
No, but my drop links are, il take some better pictures later.
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Re: Suspension/Handling - Bushing, Anti Roll Bars & Coilovers.

Post by Scartlead » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:43 pm

Could I ask what variables you have to consider when setting the length of the droplinks?
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