Let's talk oil catch cans

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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by Danwells84 » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:10 pm

I'm looking for red, I'm going to replace all the vac lines as well. I've just ordered a full coolant and rad hose set in red


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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by Markryan1981 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:49 pm

So finally fitted my oil catch can, cable tied on to the engine bay! Anyone else found a better way of keeping the can still in the engine bay?

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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by wazgilbert » Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:17 pm

Chris231 wrote:
Ian.Mothersole wrote:This probably wont help, but I may as well just throw my setup into the discussion: Hayward bridge ported 231 engine, <2006/7 engine with no breather mods, and no catch can. The only oil that's been in my intake is the result of my own stupidity :oops:

I'm with Ian on this one, mine is a Hayward rebuild 2009, no overfilling issues, had no issues on track days etc. Put a catch can on and what happens on the first track day with it on, she decides she's going to vomit :puke: more oil into the catch can than she can cope with, resulting in oil all over the floor. :roll:
Mine's just done it into her intake (no catch can yet) and I was trying to understand why this happens. Is the engine at WOT sucking up the oil? I fail to appreciate why even if overfilled, the oil would rise up and pour into the breather tube anyway - it's not an overflow, it's a gas pressure relief.

I'm wondering if it's better to fit a can with a breather filter outlet to the filler neck, venting the sump, and just cap off the tube on the inlet manifold so that the engine can only get access to air from the air filter box and nothing else. Probably against the emissions design of modern cars, but why do I want to burn oil mist anyway?
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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by ChocolateTeapot » Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:25 pm

As I understand it, for the proposes of emission control, the pipe which would go into a catch can if you have one and otherwise goes into the intake is to 'recycle' toxic fumes, ie to send them back into the engine. I'm not sure why it 'burps' though...

I always keep my oil level about 3/4 and I have a baffled Greddy sump (if relevant) and my catch can was recently nigh on full of oil, 400ml or so I'd say... Thank God I had one!
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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by wazgilbert » Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:21 pm

I'm willing to bet it will stop burping if I fit a can with atmosphere vent to the filler neck and then cap the MAF hose inlet. I'm convinced the rush of air taken by the engine at WOT coincides with the highest crankcase pressure (full load of all seals) and almost guarantees that there will be an upsurge in oil into the filler neck. (especially if you keep it topped up +3/4full-ish)
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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by ChrisHolmes » Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:30 pm

Clearly oil burps do happening, but not to all cars and also in a variety of situations and given the height the oil has to rise I just cannot get my brain round his it can actually happen, but happen it does.

Certainly side seal blow by at high rpm will raise the crankcase pressure and the only way this pressure can be released is down the breather pipe into the intake pipe.

Now for some theorising and I stress its theorising.

Under normal running the hot crankcase vapours consisting of water vapour and oil are gently sucked scavenged from the top of the filler neck and will condense in the small pipe and where it entered the inlet tract.

Then you have the high rpm scenario which increases crankcase pressure and side seal blow by may cause a momentary rapid increase in pressure and airflow though the system effectively purging any accumulated fluid build up suddenly into the engine intake and scaring the bejabers out if the driver.
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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by casey » Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:45 pm

It would be great to get a full understanding of the mechanism(s) at work that causes these oil burps. Chris' theory above is plausible and could explain the "minor" burps, but doesn't adequately explain the major burps I've witnessed at trackdays (thankfully not my car, but several others, unfortunately). These major burps can expel over 500ml of oil in just a couple of laps of a track. I witnessed a temporary 500ml oil catch bottle filled with at least the same amount sprayed all over the engine bay in one incident as the bottle had overflowed. I'm at a loss to understand how so much oil can be forced up such a height in so short a time.
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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by Leefuss » Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:45 am

casey wrote:I'm at a loss to understand how so much oil can be forced up such a height in so short a time.
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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by cib24 » Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:30 am

The oil burps as you call them are caused by excessive crankcase pressure when driving on circuit at high RPM and taking high G corners, in particular when you have very sticky tires. Because it is a fully enclosed system the oil has no where to go when under pressure except up through the filler neck and via the pipe that connects back to the intake. This happens regularly on rotaries (and is actually normal on several other high performance cars) when taking long sweeping right handers that also require power, like Coram at Snetterton, as the oil is sloshed to the left side of the oil pan and pushed up through the filler neck.

The only way to resolve this issue is to relieve pressure from both sides of the oil pan, but that's complicated because to relieve pressure on the right side of the block you need to tap the oil pan so effectively you run two catch cans, i.e.

Catch Can 1 - reroute pipe from oil filler neck to catch can and either vent to atmosphere or route another pipe/hose from catch can to intake.

Catch Can 2 - route pipe/hose from oil pan tap on right side to catch can and vent to atmosphere or route another pipe/hose from catch can to intake where Catch Can 1 connects back to intake.

However, venting to atmosphere is technically illegal and not as effective as connecting the catch can back to the intake, since the connection back to the intake creates vaccum which is important.

For my RX-7 I have decided to simply run one catch can that I will route as: Oil filler neck --> Catch Can --> intake and I will use a baffled catch can to ensure the gunk caught in the can does not simply transition back into the intake tract. I will also run 1/2 full which is recommended for FDs that are used on track to limit the amount of blowby into the intake system and slow down the build up in my catch can. RX-8s are recommended to run 2/3-3/4 full.

I've gone for this one from Saikou Michi:

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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by bunch1980 » Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:35 am

I have got an OMP nice allot one but think its a tad to big to fit anywhere doh, the above one looks more better.
I got it for the oil burps possible and if ever over filled, and for the looks of course lol.

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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by Elonexxx » Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:38 pm

After my outing on sunday, (Had a run to my favourite bike cafe, The manor cafe at bellerby for any riders on here, took the car as bike is still sorned) I'd come on to a straight, 7-8k rpm, loss of all power, looked behind, huge cloud of smoke, engine dead.

Upon pulling over, restarting and smoke pouring out, checked the intake and MAF. Oil everywhere #-o

I should really buy a catch can, but this is the first time it's happened and I usually keep the level down :x
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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by ChocolateTeapot » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:47 pm

I having seen the amount of crap oil that regularly gets vomited into the catch can I reckon it may well be a good idea to have a huge one (1500ml) or two medium ones in series (750ml).
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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by wazgilbert » Sat Mar 12, 2016 7:00 pm

ImageImage

So this is now on, hoping it helps, the amount of oil I cleaned out of the MAF pipe work and airbox! New filter too, was a bit ruined.


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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by 722Adam » Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:24 pm

wazgilbert wrote: So this is now on, hoping it helps, the amount of oil I cleaned out of the MAF pipe work and airbox! New filter too, was a bit ruined.

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Is that the Cusco kit? Looks like a decent position for fitting. How much comes with it in terms of the fittings/pipework?
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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by wazgilbert » Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:56 pm

722Adam wrote:
wazgilbert wrote: So this is now on, hoping it helps, the amount of oil I cleaned out of the MAF pipe work and airbox! New filter too, was a bit ruined.

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Is that the Cusco kit? Looks like a decent position for fitting. How much comes with it in terms of the fittings/pipework?
I think it's an unbranded copy of the cusco kit. I found it on eBay https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/231822371802
It's an empty can with all the fittings shown in the advert. I used all the pipe shown in my picture from the kit.
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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by Culdranth » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:35 am

Resurrection!
I've read through this thread and some others and as usual I am still as confused was when I started reading.
basically want a baffled catch can that is air tight, no breather and mounted below the neck?

Their are lots on ebay but dont want to have to buy twice. Is their a "go too" that people buy? want to keep my engine bay looking clean, I have RRP's COFS installed so something that dosnt look out of place.

Had 2 oil burps recently, 1/2 oil. First time was me being silly holding it a full throttle in high gear at too low revs when i should have shifted down, and other time when I just ragged the poop out of it since I am getting more comfortable with the car.

This one interests me

one above I like but not got best mounting and seems bit small on capacity, easy to empty, dipstick to check level, not a huge fan of these external viewers

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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by warpc0il » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:07 pm

That looks like it should do the job.

I've had a can installed for over ten years and the only stuff I've ever found inside has been about 50ml of greasy water, which I assume was vapour from the engine breath condensating in the cool aluminium can. Even that was only the one time, after a very chilly trackday at Blyton Park.

It's still handy to have as insurance against the effects of a burp.
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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by 13Black » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:50 pm

Probably going to be lynched for scaremongering and negativity and such but oil burps at 1/2 on the dipstick isn't usually... a good sign?

Pretty sure frequent unwarranted burps can be a sign of a side seal not doing its job.

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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by warpc0il » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:24 pm

They certainly can (no pun intended) and I also suspect that a worn (rear) stationary bearing can allow the eccentric shaft to whip and the rotor to tilt, such that the side seal can't keep up.

However, while the burp events remain infrequent it's probably okay to treat the symptom rather than chasing the cause, especially if that would involve a rebuild.

There has to be some air movement through the breather system, as that's what it's there for, and it's possible that violent manoeuvres could cause a slosh of sump oil to be against the bottom of the filler/breather pipe, just as the engine is breathing out.
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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by PeteH » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:58 pm

It's an interesting one. In a piston engine, and particularly one with an odd number of pistons, the crankcase sees pressure pulses from the reciprocating pistons. In a rotary the sump area is entirely separate from the action of the rotors, and the only thing that moves inside the sump area is the oil itself. You have to breath the sump because of the temperature changes, but I have always struggled to think of a way for the sump to pressurise itself, except via the leakage of combustion gasses past the side seals and into the oil ways (or via the joins between the housings / plates, but that doesn't bear thinking about...)
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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by SeriousSam » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:41 pm

My car has only burped twice in its life. Once was at Brands Hatch after I misread the dipstick after installing my new bigger sump - topped it up with too much oil, one almighty belch later and I'm feeling all sheepish for having made an amateur mistake. The second time (which was actually the first time, chronologically speaking) it burped under normal use about a week before one of the side seals let go.

Outside of those two situations, I've never had an oil burp. Had a bit of a leak at the weekend, but that's another story ;)
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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by Essex2Visuvesi » Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:03 pm

SeriousSam wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:41 pm
Had a bit of a leak at the weekend, but that's another story ;)
Probably your age mate.... time for a prostate check?
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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by SeriousSam » Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:56 pm

Not quite that old just yet ;)
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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by ChrisHolmes » Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:20 pm

I have always thought it impossible for the oil in the sump to migrate up the oil filler tube as there just is not sufficient force in the right direction to get the oil to move up without it simply fall back down into the sump under gravity.
I think that the "liquid" in the intake is from a heavily breathing engine where combustion gases are getting past the side seals, cut off seals and oil seals and then condensing in the breather pipe as the engine cools and dripping down into the inlet bellows. Repeat this enough times and you get a build up of liquid in the bellows grooves which under full throttle maximum air flow eventually gets "pulled" over into the next groove causing that to the overflow into the next and then whoomph you have a "burp" of liquid ingested into the intake system and the smoke screen appears behind you.
Given that oil burps happen whilst driving in a straight line as well as round hard corners this further supports my thoughts.
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Re: Let's talk oil catch cans

Post by warpc0il » Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:45 pm

If that was the case then you'd expect any/every worn engine to have at least some oil hanging around in the intake bellows - but that's not what I've seen when working on my (or many other members) cars.

A couple of cars have had a lot of oil in the intake, one we knew had just burped which is why we were working on it, while the other we suspected as having had a burp with the previous owner. The latter had had the oil filter panel changed and some of the oil mopped-up but the resonance chamber on the side was still full.

All other cars (including mine) have just had the slightest dirty/greasy film on the inside of the intake hose but no sign of liquid.
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