Stationary Gear bearings

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Stationary Gear bearings

Post by benedunn » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:55 pm

Well it was gonna happen i guess, this post has quickly turned into another 'what oil thread' #-o before we stray away from the point that i was trying to make i just say it again. after seeing these pictures id like you all to understand that it is likely that everybody's stationary gear bearings are probably worn to at least some degree changing the rear bearing will not fix your problems as the front is often in a worse state than the rear (because it is the last to see any oil being the furthest from the bearing oil feed) so if when you visit a garage they tell you your rear bearing is on its way out and needs replacing watch your pockets and ask what it is they plan to do about the front .... your money would be better put towards a rebuild when/ if the time comes :wink:

now onto oil, bearing wear in the Renesis is primarily caused by (obviously) lack of lubrication, to understand this you need to know how Hydrostatic bearings work, they rely on an external pump to maintain oil pressure in a/ the whole system this oil is pressed into the microscopic gap and larger 'bath' (you can see the bath in the pictures) between the eccentric shaft (or equivalent) and bearing - the eccentric shaft literally 'sits / 'floats' on this oil film and should never actually touch the walls of the bearing! oil pressure is regulated by 2 oil pressure release valves 1 front and 1 back these are designed to release any oil pressure higher than there pre set pressure, about 70psi in the s1 Renesis engines and much higher in the s2 engines (you see, Mazda realised there was an issue :wink: )

now understand oil if you throw water on a wall it quickly runs down the wall and off onto the floor right? if you throw treacle on the same wall waiting for it to touch the floor would be a bit like watching paint dry or slugs race #-o but you had a harder time getting the treacle out of the bottle than the water the same principle applies with engine oils, 5w30 is an extremely thin oil like the water in the analogy its easily moved about giving the oil pump and in turn the engine (because the oil pump is driven by the engine) an easier time BUT it takes very little for it to run off bearing surfaces and maintaining oil pressure at low revs is difficult (it takes a lot of squeezing) a thicker oil such as 10w40 is (like the treacle) not as easy to shift about and gives the oil pump a slightly harder time (were talking almost unmeasurable amounts here the difference is tiny but sufficient) but it sticks to the bearing walls for longer and at lower revs doesn't suddenly jump ship and make maintaining oil pressure quite so difficult, also when you park the car up for bed time its not as likely to have made its way all the way back to the sump by morning!

obviously all this is very basic ... there are literally books wrote on oils, lubrication and bearings but they give you headache and aren't very interesting so i wouldn't bother :wink:



This is a topic that i think should be discussed, I'm hearing more and more of people taking there cars to certain company's with minor problems that is quickly attributed to a 'failing rear stationary gear bearing'.

Now ok, I've seen enough engines in pieces now to know for absolute certainty that we do have a problem! and everyone knows that i insist that if your still using 5w30 semi synthetic engine oil you MUST switch 10 to or 15w-40 asap! why has been delved into many a times in the oil threads but for the sake of this lets just say thicker oil = better for bearings! proven over the last 40 years in rotarys before the Renesis.

It would be wrong to not give you some examples!

this is a rear stationary gear bearing that is showing wear - its not great but your not to expect anything catastrophic to happen any time soon!

Image

this is another rear stationary gear bearing that is worn right through to the copper ... again its not great but not urgent that you fix it!

Image

this is 1st bearing i showed you's twin (ie front stationary gear bearing) its not great!

Image

this is another rear bearing, you can see with this 1 part of the copper has chipped away. this bearing is on its way out now and could last anything from 1000 - 10000 miles but its days are numbered

Image

this is the last bearings front bearing, its in a similar state - which is rare they don't normally wear the same (in my limited experience)

Image

this bearing has failed completely and is the reason the engine was stripped down! it was a rear stationary gear bearing and the inside edge of it is no long round but egg shaped, also you can just make out the lip on the top edge that folded over ... if this happens your eccentric shaft will go with it :( and its not uncommon!

Image

this is another bearing that as you can see is well and truly knackered! ... BUT it hadn't reared its ugly head and the low compression engine that it was in still ran quite happily :shock: this is also not uncommon!! this bearing didn't have very long left!!! front bearing

Image

this is the above bearings twin (rear bearing) you can see the level of wear is a million miles apart!

Image

another bearing through to the copper

Image

now this bearing was front stationary gear bearing, it was in a club members car and slipped at Blyton this last AGM (some of you will remember) its didn't just slip completely shredding itself on the locating pin it also destroyed the stationary gear, eccentric shaft and half the front cover assembly!!!

Image

Image

Image

you can see in this picture the egg shape of the bearing and the complete lack of anything inside ie no zinc OR copper

Image

and this is some of the horror it caused under the front cover!

Image

Image

Image

and for the benefit of anyone who might think I'm spinning them a tale here's a few pics of a couple of bearings that are still in there own stationary gear, they were removed from an engine that had done ONLY 56000 miles and was suffering from low compression on both rotors, not bearing failure!!

the front gear is the small 1 on the left and the rear is the larger on the right ive taken pictures of the left and right side of both bearings as you look at them here

Image

left side rear bearing

Image

right side rear bearing

Image

left side front bearing

Image

right side front bearing

Image

these bearings came out of the exact same engine!!!!! they did the same mileage, under the same conditions with the same amount of services etc etc and as you can see the rear bearing is fine but the front well f*****d for lack of a better word!

so the next time you or anyone you know visits a specialist or general garage and is told that your rear stationary gear bearing is on its way out, urgently needs fixing and you can have it done there and then for £400 :shock: then please ask them what it is exactly they plan on doing about the front bearing!!!! there's a 50% chance that (less id say as more often than not the front bearing is in worse nick than the rear) replacing the rear bearing will help your engine keep going ... and 50% chance your wasting your money!!!!

hope this has shed a little light on things for people!
Last edited by benedunn on Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by hadlowj » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:32 pm

I have seen a lot of the same as well, from both 192's and 231's with a wide range of mileages, some rather worrying.

First is what you should look out for if you see this in your oil or oil pan (shine a light through the drain hole) your in trouble.
231 fail
Image
192 fail
Image

Now for some 192 epic fail, this engine had front bearing failure and the back was on its way out.
Front gear, you can see the bearing is starting to fall apart.
Image

This is rear from the same engine. Not quite failing apart yet.
Image

The the result on the eshaft, the front is finished.
Image
Image

The rear, not has bad but there are little bumps in it.
Image

Now for a big 231 fail, you may have seen these before on my bearing destruction thread.
Again the was a front failure.
The rear bearing.
Image
And the result on the e-shaft
Image

And now the really bad, the front bearing. This bearing had slipped and the retaining screw had cut the bearing into 2 pieces.
Image
And the result on the e-shaft
Image
The whole front gear was junk, this is what happened when I tried to push the bearing out.
Image

Now some pics of other bearings, these range from 55-70K, they all needed replacing, if you see any copper its finished. If you run you finger along a good bearing its a smooth as silk, when you hit the copper is rough.
192
Image
192
Image
231
Image
192
Image
231
Image

This is a bearing that has slipped in a 192.
Image

Now for the one that will worry some, this engine had done only 36K its a 192.
Front
Image
Rear
Image
Last edited by hadlowj on Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by Bulldog » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:22 pm

Quality post and explanation :)
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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by bigpete » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:55 pm

Nice one ben i learnt alot i think. anyway keep up the good work

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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by hadlowj » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:34 pm

I also spotted something else in those pics :twisted:

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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by Lloyd2011 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:36 pm

As if we all never had enough to worry about....
Thanks guys LOL
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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by benedunn » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:56 pm

lol i wondered if anyone might see that james 8)


lloyed better you know about it! other than switch to thicker oil theres nothing you or anyone can really do about it! thats my point!!!

to get someone to swap both bearings you would be looking at a bill around the £1000 mark, changing the front bearing with the engine in situe would be a huge undertaking and is actually quite a risky buisness as it would be pretty easy to finish up with tourington bearings that look the same as steved's that romford mazda got to play with :shock:

so basically your 1/2 way to paying for a rebuild so save your money and just use thicker oil :wink:
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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by benedunn » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:04 pm

a pic or 2 of rotor bearings

Image

Image

as you can see rotor bearings dont seem to have the same issues as gear bearings thank god!!! ive never seen 1 showing its copper through but i ALWAYS change them anyway (you might have guessed :roll: ) ... just incase! i wouldnt want to have to go to the trouble of stripping and engine a second time for the sake of the bloody rotor bearings :lol:
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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by vic_cambridge » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:31 pm

Great post nice one guys. I just have to stop rocking back and forth now saying "my front and rear bearings are going" :) Guess id bvetter start using 10w40, does it take long to get all the 10w30 out of the system? Considering my cars just hit 65k i could be closing the door after the horse has bolted! Does it take much longer for the car to reach op temperature with 10w40..hence more risk of damaging engine on smaller journeys?
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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by liambeattie1 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:48 pm

what he said

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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by Deadly_Viper » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:25 pm

Are the R3's bearings the same quality?
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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by hadlowj » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:59 pm

The rotor bearings have the same part numbers as do the stationary gear bearings.

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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by benedunn » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:15 pm

please everyone dont panik haha :lol: your bearings have not suddenly taken a dive for the worst just because youve read this post!!!

no switching to 10w40 isnt going to increase the amount of time it takes for the car to warm up!!! infact other than the amount of time it takes to pour it you probably wont notice any difference at all.

just start using it, dont go nuts and start emptying the oil cooler in an atempt to get shut of ALL the old stuff just carry on as normal but using 10w40 once your stocks of 5w30 run out. this is all we can do really :( if its going to happen its going to happen the only way to prevent is to change them before they go but as ive said its just not economically viable to go to the trouble, the money would be better saved for when its rebuild time wether that be due to low compression or bearing failure :wink:


the R3's bearings are identical to the S1 231 bearings .... which are the same as the FD rx7 bearings ... road going rx7's didnt really have a problem with bearing failure ... because they didnt use water instead of engine oil (ie 10 or 15w40 rather than 5w30!)
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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by exiled-viking » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:44 pm

so if you say switch oil, then i have always used prolong oil synionic oils and if you read there right up this should never happen :roll: :wink:
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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by liambeattie1 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:46 pm

Water lol

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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by benedunn » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:50 pm

yep!!! because prolong is 15w30 right??? its much thicker :wink:

acording to my 'rx8' book it says that mazda switched to the thinner oil to make it easier for the oil injectors to get the oil in to lubricate the seals on the rotors ... fair enough except we know they still didnt get that right!!! and sacrificed the bearings to achieve very little!!

i for 1 would rather have to deal with a slowly dying engine and hot start issues knowing i had time to save up for a rebuild than driving about quite happily 1 day in a car with no hot start problems, pulling up at a set of lights an dthe car cuts out never to run again #-o trust me ive been through it! as have many others. :D
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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by hadlowj » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:53 pm

If you use prolong and there warranty is as good as they say then if it does go pop then they should pay for the rebuild anyway :) Prolong is 10w30 so thicker than 5w30.

Even if it is a little more difficult for the oil injectors this can be negated by premixing :)

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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by Tob-y » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:55 pm

ddddddddddduudddde i just bought a 5litre bottle of 5-30w fuchs titan xtr :( your saying its no good :(?

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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by benedunn » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:02 pm

nah buddy use it, just next time get 10w40 :wink:
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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by benedunn » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:03 pm

hey James has that eccentric shaft cracked :shock:
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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by hadlowj » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:07 pm

OO did not notice that, I only took that engine apart a few days ago and have not properly inspected it after seeing the front but in the pic that does look like hair cracks. I will give it a good go over tomorrow and find out.

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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by exiled-viking » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:24 pm

some of us have been saying this for years but it seems to fall on deff ears there was one so called spin doctor on here that nearly ended up in court by dissing/ making a false allegation about the oil how ever i have always used this oil,

even in the gear- box :shock: for the last 29,000 miles and 14,000 in the diff :shock: how ever i am now using a different oil in the diff :!: :!:

mind you i change my oil more than most., every 3000 or 6 months so my car was serviced in march and its only done 360 miles so the next service will not be any where near 1000 but i think your almost hitting the nail on the head by saying the oil is way to thin in its viscosity that mazda needed for this engine :!:

well done lads nice write up =D> =D> =D> nice bright idea with the photos :idea: :idea:
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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by benedunn » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:36 pm

a photo says a thousand words ... i figured we needed to get the point to hit home!!

this thread is not about protecting your stationary gear bearings and which oil to use its litterally about protecting your wallet for people conning you by charging you obsene amounts of money to half fix a problem they know for absolute certanty you have simply because most 8's will be showing least some level of wear on both bearings :wink:
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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by vic_cambridge » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:01 pm

As this topic is just about the stationary gear bearings people searching would prob hit this topic first for the answer to this question.
Are there tell tale signs, noises etc that indicate that they can be on their way out at all. E.G. when a wheel bearings goes you start to know because of the noise.
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Re: Stationary Gear bearings

Post by benedunn » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:12 pm

Ok this isn't where I planned on this going

There are the odd few signs but they are subtle like tinking, scraping noises a high revs ... The point is there's nothing you can really do! You could Spend a fortune having them swapped out then 6 months later start with compression problems and have another load of money to splash out!

That is the point of this post, I'd just like people to be aware of the problem and actually see it, this way you can make an informed decision if you ever find yourself being told that your rear stationary gear bearing is on its way out and it'll cost you a small fortune to fix!

Hope that makes sense!

Ben
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