Oil Questions and Recommendations

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Re: Oil Questions and Recommendations

Post by R8loa » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:52 pm

oilman wrote:Hi

Not really, same issue, when hot, the oil will be a 140, same as the 85w-140, so there is still likely to be a heat build up. Also there is a loss of power (pretty small) and there is more strain on the diff.

Cheers

Tim
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Re: Oil Questions and Recommendations

Post by StreetDragster » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:21 pm

Hi Simon,

Is Shell Helix Hx7 a 'mineral oil'?

I want to use it for an oil change, warrenty paperwork explicitly states that mineral should be used and synthetic will void the warrenty.
Wondering where Hx7 stands when you cut through the confusing manufacturing jargon

10w40 if it's important

Thanks
Matt

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Re: Oil Questions and Recommendations

Post by Leefuss » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:28 pm

Sorry to jump in but I use Shell Helix HX7 in my 8 and believe it's a semi-synthetic as it uses synthetic and mineral technologies

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Re: Oil Questions and Recommendations

Post by oilman » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:29 pm

Hi Matt

HX7 is a semi synthetic, but like all semi synthetics, they are made out of 100% mineral oil (the synthetic component is modified and refined mineral oil). My boss used the Fuchs XTR 5w-30 (which is a synthetic, but 100% mineral oil based) in his RX-8 for about 7 years with no issues at all.

Cheers

Tim
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Re: Oil Questions and Recommendations

Post by StreetDragster » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:35 pm

Thanks Tim, that's reassuring

Matt

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Re:

Post by rx_sjo » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:40 pm

rogerki wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:27 pm
There was a post (or comment) on one of the rotary engine sites suggesting that fully synthetic oils leave more carbon in the engine from the combustion of the injected oil, and that this can get stuck in one of the ports, locking the rotors. This was talking about the RX7 engine.

Any thoughts on this theory?

(I think it was one one of the rotary engine specialist refurb sites)
Just read through this entire thread and I feel this is one question that has yet to be answered.

Opie, any thoughts please?

Also, separately, it seems some people are adding 2-stroke oil into their petrol (premix) to either supplement our replace the OEM oil injection system. What could be the possible advantage over injecting this type of oil over just injecting the approved engine oil (either from the sump or a separate sohn tank)?

This may or may not be relative at all, but my experience of using mineral/caster oils is sticky and gold/brown residue is a leftover, whereby a decent synthetic usually leaves an engine looking relatively mint. Now this is in a reciprocating engine where not much oil gets burned, so perhaps the behaviour is quite different in a rotary. I guess a possible comparison could be a piston engine with worn bores that is burning oil, however the temperatures are quite different in a rotary. Difficult to compare!

And as always, the fundamental problem is nobody wants to fund testing in controlled environments, so by default it's back to trial and error, or more typical, popular opinion!

I did notice someone above ask why Opie is not following engine rebuilders service - with all due respect to those companies, I doubt any of them have access to the industry experts that Opie do, so unless they can provide evidence as to why they're recommending such thick oils (which may or may not provide the same level of lubrication and protection as the OEM spec oil), then I know who's advice I'd be listening to. I appreciate it's difficult when warranty criteria is based on it, so you have to make your own choices :)

I'm not trying to be controversial, just like my decisions to be based on data and testing.

(and apologies for resurrecting an old thread!)

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Re: Oil Questions and Recommendations

Post by oilman » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:59 am

Hi

Synthetics are not as straightforward as being synthetic or not, there are three types of synthetic oil that could be used.

1) Hydrocracked - mineral oil is put through a modification and purification process, changing it significantly from what it was when it came out of the ground and it is then legally sold as synthetic in the UK (some other countries refer to it by other names). Most synthetics on the UK market are hydrocracked oil.

2) PAO - Poly Alpha Olefins - Proper, lab made synthetics. They are very good, but expensive to make and many hydrocracked oils are as good as the PAOs now, but cheaper to produce. Getting more and more rare on the market.

3) Ester - very few oils are 100% ester based, they tend to be mixed with the hydrocracked or PAO oil to make the final product. Ester based oils have a few advantages over normal oils.

1) They cling to metal surfaces, so the interior of your engine is coated with oil at all times, meaning instant cold start protection.
2) They reduce friction further than normal oils, leading to improved protection.
3) Esters make the oil more stable, making ester based oils ideal for hard use.
4) Due to the reduced friction, engines often run smoother and quieter.

In a standard rotary, just being used on the road, then a PAO or ester oil is not going to get hot enough to burn off properly and could leave a residue. A hydrocracked oil is fine for road use in a rotary, but with rotary engines, they need a thrashing from time to time to get the oil hot enough to make sure it burns off.

If it's modified or tracked, depending on the level, you can use a PAO or ester based oil. One of our long term sponsored drivers (Dragon Performance) has used the Fuchs Pro S for years in some of their high powered RX7s.



As for why people listen to engine builders or us, there are different ways to look at it. A lot of engine builders will be dealing with the same engine, day in, day out, so they know that particular engine better than I do. However, a lot of mechanics don't know much about oil (I had to sign something saying that the oil I had supplied for my car was fine as the garage didn't agree with my choice) and after dealing with certain garages, I'm not convinced they always want a customer to use the best oil as they want the car to come back. But I'm selling the oil, so people often think that I'm just trying to squeeze extra money out of them. I'm not on commission and don't have targets, so if someone spends £20 or £50, it really doesn't affect me. I would rather just give the best information that I can and let the customer decide what they want to go for.

I deal directly with oil companies and we get information off the record that oil companies would not release to the public. I've been here for 10 years now, learning about oils and what works for what and I tend to do a pretty good job with it (otherwise we'd be sued out of business). I'm not going to claim to be able to rebuild a rotary or anything like that, but that isn't what I deal with. I wouldn't ask a plumber to build me a wall.

A few years ago, I asked a couple of oil companies about rotaries specifically (and off the record, so no corporate nonsense) and got the same answer from both of them, with no prompting whatsoever. Both suggested using a hydrocracked synthetic 5w-30, but a reduced ash oil (ACEA C3) as that will help to prevent carbon deposits.

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-792-acea-c ... e-oil.aspx

Those are all hydrocracked, other than the Red Line, Amsoil and Fuchs Titan Race Pro C3.

2 stroke is just extra lubrication, it's not essential, but it does help. If you want to use a 2 stroke, I would go for a JASO FC or FD spec oil as they are cleaner burning, but other than that, whatever you use is just a bonus compared to just using normal oil.

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-1269-jaso- ... e-oil.aspx

Cheers

Tim
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Re: Oil Questions and Recommendations

Post by rx_sjo » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:06 pm

oilman wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:59 am
A few years ago, I asked a couple of oil companies about rotaries specifically (and off the record, so no corporate nonsense) and got the same answer from both of them, with no prompting whatsoever. Both suggested using a hydrocracked synthetic 5w-30, but a reduced ash oil (ACEA C3) as that will help to prevent carbon deposits.

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-792-acea-c ... e-oil.aspx
Thanks for your comprehensive reply, Tim. Does this recommended for an ACEA C3 oil go against the previous advice of Fuchs XTR 5w-30? I was almost set on using this going forwards but now I am unsure.

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Re: Oil Questions and Recommendations

Post by rx_sjo » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:32 pm

Out of interest, i've produced a graph based on UOA sources (elsewhere).. Now this isn't particularly scientific as it's not a controlled environment - inconsistent mileages per oil change, different driving styles, different levels of modification, and probably different amounts of source datas per oil grade.. however there are some interesting trends:

Image

If this can be believed (which personally I don't think it can), then it would suggest the recommendations from the engine re-builders of using a thicker oil (when cold) is beneficial (at least from a chrome and iron wear perspective)..

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Re: Oil Questions and Recommendations

Post by DB2626983C » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:26 pm

So using an Ester fully synthetic based oil is fine in a Rotary engine when a sohn adaptor is fitted as there’s no oil burning? I have some Millers nanodrive CFS 5w-40 NT+ I was going to use for “spirited” road use.

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Re: Oil Questions and Recommendations

Post by oilman » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:14 pm

Hi, Sorry for the late reply on here. For some reason we lost notifications.

All sorted now so still here if anyone still wants to chat oil :)

Cheers

Tim
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Re: Oil Questions and Recommendations

Post by GreySilver Beast » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:18 pm

Glad to see you are back on here Tim :thumleft:

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Re: Oil Questions and Recommendations

Post by Ryan Rotary Performance » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:00 pm

oilman wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:59 am
Hi

Synthetics are not as straightforward as being synthetic or not, there are three types of synthetic oil that could be used.

1) Hydrocracked - mineral oil is put through a modification and purification process, changing it significantly from what it was when it came out of the ground and it is then legally sold as synthetic in the UK (some other countries refer to it by other names). Most synthetics on the UK market are hydrocracked oil.

2) PAO - Poly Alpha Olefins - Proper, lab made synthetics. They are very good, but expensive to make and many hydrocracked oils are as good as the PAOs now, but cheaper to produce. Getting more and more rare on the market.

3) Ester - very few oils are 100% ester based, they tend to be mixed with the hydrocracked or PAO oil to make the final product. Ester based oils have a few advantages over normal oils.

1) They cling to metal surfaces, so the interior of your engine is coated with oil at all times, meaning instant cold start protection.
2) They reduce friction further than normal oils, leading to improved protection.
3) Esters make the oil more stable, making ester based oils ideal for hard use.
4) Due to the reduced friction, engines often run smoother and quieter.

In a standard rotary, just being used on the road, then a PAO or ester oil is not going to get hot enough to burn off properly and could leave a residue. A hydrocracked oil is fine for road use in a rotary, but with rotary engines, they need a thrashing from time to time to get the oil hot enough to make sure it burns off.

If it's modified or tracked, depending on the level, you can use a PAO or ester based oil. One of our long term sponsored drivers (Dragon Performance) has used the Fuchs Pro S for years in some of their high powered RX7s.



As for why people listen to engine builders or us, there are different ways to look at it. A lot of engine builders will be dealing with the same engine, day in, day out, so they know that particular engine better than I do. However, a lot of mechanics don't know much about oil (I had to sign something saying that the oil I had supplied for my car was fine as the garage didn't agree with my choice) and after dealing with certain garages, I'm not convinced they always want a customer to use the best oil as they want the car to come back. But I'm selling the oil, so people often think that I'm just trying to squeeze extra money out of them. I'm not on commission and don't have targets, so if someone spends £20 or £50, it really doesn't affect me. I would rather just give the best information that I can and let the customer decide what they want to go for.

I deal directly with oil companies and we get information off the record that oil companies would not release to the public. I've been here for 10 years now, learning about oils and what works for what and I tend to do a pretty good job with it (otherwise we'd be sued out of business). I'm not going to claim to be able to rebuild a rotary or anything like that, but that isn't what I deal with. I wouldn't ask a plumber to build me a wall.

A few years ago, I asked a couple of oil companies about rotaries specifically (and off the record, so no corporate nonsense) and got the same answer from both of them, with no prompting whatsoever. Both suggested using a hydrocracked synthetic 5w-30, but a reduced ash oil (ACEA C3) as that will help to prevent carbon deposits.

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-792-acea-c ... e-oil.aspx

Those are all hydrocracked, other than the Red Line, Amsoil and Fuchs Titan Race Pro C3.

2 stroke is just extra lubrication, it's not essential, but it does help. If you want to use a 2 stroke, I would go for a JASO FC or FD spec oil as they are cleaner burning, but other than that, whatever you use is just a bonus compared to just using normal oil.

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-1269-jaso- ... e-oil.aspx

Cheers

Tim
Tim

Completely agree, and we have had some conversations in the past regarding the same, I personally have used 5w-30 C3 engine oils with good results, my brother for years now has used Motul 5W-30 300V in his car the engine has been stripped many times with this oil and there is no more than the expected carbon build up in the engine. Most of our customers have heavily modified engines and most I would say run this oil with no reported problems so far.

i'm currently running shell helix ultra 5w-40 in a low modified engine, been running flawlessly for 4000-5000 miles now, but I'll see the results when we come to strip it. (has been on this oil from day 1)

I think oils have moved on and the rotary world needs to catch up! Although, the best option is to fit a COFS adapter, clean oil whether it be engine or 2T is better than dirty every time.

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Re: Oil Questions and Recommendations

Post by boosted » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:27 pm

DB2626983C wrote:So using an Ester fully synthetic based oil is fine in a Rotary engine when a sohn adaptor is fitted as there’s no oil burning? I have some Millers nanodrive CFS 5w-40 NT+ I was going to use for “spirited” road use.

Dave
This is the exact same stuff im using in my Westfield...rx8 powered...it gets a hammering on track on slicks...i lost 2 engine due to rotor bearing damage ( lack of sufficient lubrication). Both with 1500 miles...this 3rd engine now at 2200 miles is still going strong and has had an oil change into a clear container and the oil filter cut open...not hugely scientific but magnet test and visible test and no swarf atall.
I also premix with a jaso FD oil Exol 2t racing...

2200 is still to early to tell hoping Liam pulls his old engine apart to see the condition of his bearings as he uses this oil as well...i copied him....as he had an side seal failure unrelated to oil poss a piece of spark plug..

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Re: Oil Questions and Recommendations

Post by untakenname » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:47 pm

I'm using shell helix ultra 5w40 as well.
One thing to note with the Helix ultra range is that the fundamental base stock of the oil changed in 2016 even though the name stayed the same.
https://www.shell.co.uk/motorist/oils-l ... eplus.html

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Re: Oil Questions and Recommendations

Post by DB2626983C » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:30 pm

Boosted
Are you associating the bearing failures you’ve had due lack of lubrication to the type of oil?
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Re: Oil Questions and Recommendations

Post by boosted » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:34 am

In a nut shell yes.

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Re: Oil Questions and Recommendations

Post by DB2626983C » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:49 am

Hi Oilman

Can there be a reason why this ester based fully synthetic oil can cause such a problem? I've just changed my oil to this running a sohn adapter and more than a little concerned.

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Re: Oil Questions and Recommendations

Post by boosted » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:14 am

DB2626983C wrote:So using an Ester fully synthetic based oil is fine in a Rotary engine when a sohn adaptor is fitted as there’s no oil burning? I have some Millers nanodrive CFS 5w-40 NT+ I was going to use for “spirited” road use.

Dave
You may have got the wrong end of the stick...ive swapped to this on my 3rd engine and its still going strong..oils been changed at 2k and not a hint of swarf in waste oil...

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Re: Oil Questions and Recommendations

Post by DB2626983C » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:18 am

Oh okay...yes I got the wrong end of the stick. Thanks for setting me straight!
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