192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

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Ryan Rotary Performance
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192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by Ryan Rotary Performance » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:07 pm

So we have been at it again guys, experimenting with engines, as you most of you know we went up to Rotary Revs in September with our latest 231 Full Bridgeport Engine which saw us get 212WHP (Wheel Horse Power) which would be roughly around the 245HP mark.

This 231 had fantastic mid range one of the best seen on the dyno, a really drive-able Rx8.

Seeing that the focus has all been about the 231 and that the 192 crowd are missing out, we decided to install a 192 engine into the 231 car (the same test car). Yes this can be done no problems at all, you get all the benefits of the 231, 6 speed box, headlights etc but with some benefits of the 192 engine which I'll come onto shortly.

So the 192 engine is a Full Bridgeport again, with exactly the same specification as the 231 engine which was installed previously. We used a virtual dyno from the 231 to compare to the new 192 and the results are below:
192 Vs 231 (Thunder).jpg
Red = 192 Power (Peak 197WHP @ 7700RPM)
Blue - 192 Torque (Peak 155lB @ 5500RPM)
Green - 231 Power (Peak 212 WHP8350RPM)
Yellow - 231 Torque (Peak 145lB @6800RPM

As you can see the 192 has ALOT more mid range power than the 231, this makes it hugely more drivable on the road with more power on tap, from 4000-6000RPM it has between 15-25% more power!!! But it does seem to die a bit up top due to not having the APV, still we believe this will still achieve 200WHP (232HP roughly) which is pretty good, especially with so much extra mid range.

So this is just stage one of this experiment, look out for stage 2 where we are hoping to increase the power to something more like 220WHP with still all the benefits of more torque down low.

Don't ask whats been done [-X , its all a bit hush :-# at the moment but we will share the results when we have been on the Dyno at Rotary Revs so keep following, we will then offer this as an option for all those 192 customers AND 231 customers who want drive-ability over top end power.

Thanks for looking all.
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SeriousSam
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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by SeriousSam » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:34 am

Interesting results there Carl, look forward to hearing more. So what is it about the 192 engine that makes it so much stronger in the mid-range? My (admittedly limited) understanding was that the 231 was basically the 192 with additional ports and a higher rev limit, but that the two operate very similarly up to the point that the APV opens. It appears from this test that this isn't the case, so what could be encouraging that improved torque curve?
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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by Juey » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:24 am

How the hell does it hang on to 140lb torque for that long?????

...the dark art of porting and mapping no doubt :ninja: :sign: :ninja:
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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by untakenname » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:00 am

I drove a 192 whilst my 231 was having work done to it and driving around it definitely felt quicker down low, was a bit underwhelmed when I got back into my 231 till I wrung it out and hit redline a few times :)

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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by Ryan Rotary Performance » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:27 am

As already mentioned guys we cannot talk too much about the internals except to say this is a full bridge with a few twists in the tale.

Interestingly we did ingear pulls next to one of our own 231 full bridge cars and this was significantly faster!!!

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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by Ryan Rotary Performance » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:39 am

untakenname wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:00 am
I drove a 192 whilst my 231 was having work done to it and driving around it definitely felt quicker down low, was a bit underwhelmed when I got back into my 231 till I wrung it out and hit redline a few times :)
This is definitely no standard 192!

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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by mi60o0 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:40 am

Can 210 import to benefit from power gains ?
BatRex 192 stock

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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by Ryan Rotary Performance » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:42 am

mi60o0 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:40 am
Can 210 import to benefit from power gains ?
The 210 import from memory is a 4 port so yes, it'll perform very much like this car.

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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by mi60o0 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:47 am

Just not sure about the ecu
I been told I have to stick to oem coils etc
Is 5 speed manual 4 port engine
BatRex 192 stock

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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by Ryan Rotary Performance » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:52 am

mi60o0 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:47 am
Just not sure about the ecu
I been told I have to stick to oem coils etc
Is 5 speed manual 4 port engine
I've mapped out the codes before on an import engine with no ill effects so that aftermarket coils can be used.

I would also suggest swapping to a 6 speed box it suits the engine so much better than the 5.

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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by warpc0il » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:56 pm

mi60o0 wrote:Can 210 import to benefit from power gains ?
The JDM 210 is exactly the same power as the UK-spec 192.

The difference is that Japanese manufacturers can use a different calculation for power in their home market than used in Europe and the US.

This is why the 231 was originally pre-launched as 250 in the US, until the authorities caught on and Mazda had to re-launch as 231.

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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by mi60o0 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:23 pm

So why people have issue i read with aftermarket coils is the ecu different in any way ?
BatRex 192 stock

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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by 13Black » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:40 pm

The primary intake ports and exhaust ports are a slightly different size/shape on the 4-ports - a standard one will usually achieve more peak torque than a 6-port.

Nothing a few minutes with a die grinder can't match, mind. So clearly something clever going on with RRP's take on it!
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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by warpc0il » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:07 pm

mi60o0 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:23 pm
So why people have issue i read with aftermarket coils is the ecu different in any way ?
Yes, the JDM PCM has extra checks that the coils aren't dying, or have been replaced with aftermarket.
See search.php?keywords=JDM+PCM
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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by LeeW » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:35 am

Can the Rev limit on either of these be increased with any any benefit? Having the characteristics of those 192 curves with the excitement of taking the needle around as far as a 231 is a very interesting prospect if there were no downsides....

Or, if the rev limit on the 231 increased would it further separate itself from the 192 in the higher RPMs?

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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by Ryan Rotary Performance » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:54 am

LeeW wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:35 am
Can the Rev limit on either of these be increased with any any benefit? Having the characteristics of those 192 curves with the excitement of taking the needle around as far as a 231 is a very interesting prospect if there were no downsides....

Or, if the rev limit on the 231 increased would it further separate itself from the 192 in the higher RPMs?

Lee
on every 192 (4 Port) we build we upgrade the stationary bearings to that of the 231, this along with an upgraded oil pressure regulator will be all the mechanical upgrades that are needed to see the 192 raise its redline from 7500 to 9000 RPM which is inline with the 231 (6 Port).

As for the benefits of reving that high, torque really starts to tail off by 7000 which is why peak power is under 8K so revving to 9K becomes more bragging rights than necessary. When Stage 2 is released we expect power increases all the way to 9K.

That being said the 192 in this format is still the better road car. (compared to the 231)
Last edited by Ryan Rotary Performance on Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by LeeW » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:10 am

As if I wasn’t struggling enough with what to do with my car already, this really is food for thought.
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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by Ryan Rotary Performance » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:06 pm

Thought I'll put a little update here, so we are now ready to push on with stage 2 of the project, the base engine which is a 4 Port will now become a 6 port again, increasing the top end power and maintaining all the benefits of Stage 1 of the project.

Test engine will be going in next month and if the results come in then this will be offered to customers straight away as something better and more powerful right through the rev range than ANY style of porting before hand :)

first few customers will get a discount on the price of this and its looking to come in at around £800 more than a Full bridge which is £2600.
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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by Eddie_r32 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:54 pm

Why am i trying to figure out how I can justify/afford this?
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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by Scartlead » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:10 pm

Join the que chaps :) Waiting to hear results to see what my plan is.
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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by Scartlead » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:12 pm

Eddie_r32 wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:54 pm
Why am i trying to figure out how I can justify/afford this?
Sure you’ve had most of the work done already Ed? Carl would have the mod done in an afternoon! :D plus you must be on some sort of loyalty card for mega discount :D
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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by Bullet5 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:15 pm

Scartlead wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:10 pm
Join the que chaps :) Waiting to hear results to see what my plan is.
Same here. This is incredibly interesting. This and your supercharger project. I'm certainly down for at least one of them. :thumright:

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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by 350matt » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:24 pm

agreed this sounds exciting I look forward to seeing the results

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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by delta0 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:34 pm

Just to be clear this is a 192 with special things done and a 231 with a Bridgeport? I suspect we are hitting the limits of the engines which is why the 192 is showing bigger gains. However learnings from what is giving the extra torque in the 192 could be beneficial to the 231
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Re: 192 Vs 231? This may surprise you!

Post by Ryan Rotary Performance » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:48 pm

delta0 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:34 pm
Just to be clear this is a 192 with special things done and a 231 with a Bridgeport? I suspect we are hitting the limits of the engines which is why the 192 is showing bigger gains. However learnings from what is giving the extra torque in the 192 could be beneficial to the 231
That's correct the graph shows a 231 Bridge-Port Vs a 192 RRP special, but that wasn't any 231 it was only 2WHP off the record 231 at Rotary Revs dyno so the 192 is really compared against the best scenario 231 6 port.

The "192" now more like 230HP is significantly more punchy that the 6 port, my brother loves it, now with stage 2 if we can keep that going to 9K+ then this will be an unbeatable "renesis" engine. at the moment if falls flat on its face at 7K but we think we know why :thumright:
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