Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by V8 Power » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:19 am

Sooooooooo after all the melonising it looks to me that bridgeporting does not give proven gains in terms of overall driveability?
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by Eddie_r32 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:34 am

V8 Power wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:19 am
Sooooooooo after all the melonising it looks to me that bridgeporting does not give proven gains in terms of overall driveability?
There was only one Bridgeport (me!) and my car was ill that day, it's sorted again (new coils) so shall return to see Jez asap for my redemption run. My car has improved drivability due to increased power and torque throughout the rev range.
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by ChrisHolmes » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:02 am

Stus is a non ported rebuild and mine is RB street port done by me
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by 13Black » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:41 am

V8 Power wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:19 am
Sooooooooo after all the melonising it looks to me that bridgeporting does not give proven gains in terms of overall driveability?

Who said anything about bridge ports :D



The pic below is from RR/MAP's dyno, with an (admittedly tired) standard engine, vs one of their full bridge builds.

Looks plenty drivable enough to me!

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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by kopite72 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:46 am

yip,big gains to be had from FB ports,almost a 30pc increase from that chart in HP and 10pc increase in torque,i'd buy that for a dollar.What interests me more is the race porting that Josh is doing,even more to be had from that,yes please 8)
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by 13Black » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:52 am

I'd have a word with Josh about it before getting too attached - owning one won't be for everyone imho, as clever as they are.
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by Eddie_r32 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:00 am

13Black wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:52 am
I'd have a word with Josh about it before getting too attached - owning one won't be for everyone imho, as clever as they are.
What you saying about Dan?
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by kopite72 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:03 am

Be fine for a weekend car which is what I'm planning to do with mine.....
PLAN...RR HB OR FB PLATINUM REBUILD
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DONE...
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by PeteH » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:28 am

kopite72 wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:46 am
yip,big gains to be had from FB ports,almost a 30pc increase from that chart in HP and 10pc increase in torque,i'd buy that for a dollar.What interests me more is the race porting that Josh is doing,even more to be had from that,yes please 8)
I think we need a dose of realism here! We know from all these dyno runs that a healthy stock 231 makes about 185whp (the one in the plot Nick showed was typical of the tired motors we measured on the dyno days). Full bridges have been shown to make anywhere from 200whp to about 215whp. That's a gain of between 8% and 16%.

We also have to consider that many of the bridged engines will have supporting mods, which may* add additional power.

My best guess at the moment is that a well done full bridge can add between 10% and 15%, and a well done street port can add no more than about 5%.

Race port? Speculation is pointless. The dyno will tell us. If it is shown to make 230whp then I'll be sending my old motor to RR.

* Mods are tricky to assess, because individual gains are so small that they are hard to measure. A full set of intake, exhaust, A/C delete, etc should add a few bhp.
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by rameshr » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:34 am

I am just wondering is it worth spending money on FB, etc when the power output is lower than others. A 350z vs a FB engine with respect to cost?


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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by jondkent » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:37 am

If you are rebuilding anyway then I think you can justify the increased cost. Otherwise....nope

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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by 13Black » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:45 am

I think a 350z will be quicker, if that's what you want and only what you want. But if you want str9 line speed then it's not like they tear your eyes out with the loud angry elephant pedal either.
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by warpc0il » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:47 am

I've seen references to "A/C delete" adding power and I just don't get it.

The magnetic drive clutch to the A/C compressor is controlled by the PCM, which disengages the drive sporadically at idle, to keep the idle revs smooth, and totally disengages as soon as you floor the throttle pedal, so there is zero parasitic loss on WOT, even if the climate control was left in Auto mode. I assume everyone does dyno runs with the climate control off anyway.

Granted, A/C delete will provide a weight saving for a track car but that's not going to impact the dyno results.

Am I missing something here?

Similarly, lightened flywheels don't add power on the dyno, and neither do "performance" clutches.

Underdrive pulleys could release a tiny amount of power but I suspect the difference would be less than the margin of error, especially as the PCM also manages the alternator load anyway.
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by PeteH » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:00 am

I did say any such mods would be tiny incremental gains. Deleting the A/C allows you to delete an entire belt, and that belt is driven all the time, even if it doesn't take much load sometimes. Rubber belts, idler bearings, and compressor bearings all add something to the parasitic engine losses. It also allows you to delete one of the e-shaft pulleys (same effect as using lightened pulleys). It also allows you to delete the condenser in front of the radiator, which should keep your engine running cooler for longer, meaning the electrical draw from running the fans should be less (less alternator drag).

I think the gains are fairly small, but probably bigger than from lightweight pulleys, for instance.
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by PeteH » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:05 am

The point about light pulleys, race clutches, and light flywheels, is that "real world" dyno runs are done transiently (with the engine accelerating). They don't measure brake horse power, because the engine isn't braked to steady state. Therefore, reducing inertia will increase the apparent whp. I'm not saying this is a "real" increase in bhp (it isn't), but it will be the cause of some engines recording more apparent power on chassis dynos. We just need to take that into account when considering the results.
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by cib24 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:29 am

Come on guys, the reality is really simple and is plain physics.

Whilst the Renesis is a fantastic motor and I enjoyed the hell out of mine, you are not going to make much more power than a bone stock RX-8 with any type of fancy porting if you want any semblance of reliability. This is all because the exhaust port design is way too restrictive and there isn't much you can do about porting it further or engineering away the two 90 degree bends required for exhaust gases to exit the combustion chamber.

Don't you notice that the Renesis seems to make 185-215 brake horsepower on 99% of cars? Sure, some people have claimed 230, 250 or even 270 but where are those dynos and more importantly, where is the drag strip run showing that these cars have so much more power than a stock car?

Now, when I had my RX-8 it was street ported and had a small bridge on the secondary and tertiary ports, but I also had a free flowing Racing beat shorty header, silenced mid pipe and cat-back on the car with a healthy ignition system. Sure, it would pull on other RX-8s a little bit at the track because my engine was relatively healthy and possibly making a touch more power, and it could keep up with an unmodded S2000 in a straight line. But I don't think I was making anymore than maybe 200-210 brake horsepower.

When you look at the old 13b N/A motors, whether 4-port or 6-port they can all be ported to make much more power than the Renesis. A street port will net you 200-250 (depending on extremes), a bridge port will net you up to 275, and a peripheral port could get you over 300, and if you didn't care about reliability you could push a 13b 4-port to nearly 400 bhp with methanol and crazy timing (the fastest N/A 13b drag car is a 400hp 9 second RX-2). Why? Well, it's because of the peripheral exhaust port design and the ability to port it for even more flow.

The Renesis doesn't have that benefit due to the restrictive side exhaust ports so it will never ever be able to make the same kind of power as the older 13b N/A cars can when ported.

The RX-8 is still one of the best driver's cars out there and a fantastic value for money track car, but I personally would not focus on playing with the motor if I got another one, I would focus on the suspension, brakes, tyres, weight reduction and improving my driving skill. That's what will make you faster around a circuit but straight line speed will never be one of its strengths.
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by warpc0il » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:59 am

The Renesis side exhaust ports have those bends but they're also way bigger than a p-ported engine, so it's just not that simple
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by 13Black » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:05 pm

Now then now then, I do believe things have moved on a little since you last had an 8 :P

Just the other day, Revs refitted their first bridge port engine to another car, which has about 30k on it. So what's this about having no semblance of reliability with fancy porting? Unless by fancy you mean J ports that no one does anyway, for good reason.

Older rotaries making more power more easily isn't anything new, and I don't think anyone is expecting AMG performance out of any Renesis.
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by cib24 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:07 pm

warpc0il wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:59 am
The Renesis side exhaust ports have those bends but they're also way bigger than a p-ported engine, so it's just not that simple
I beg to differ that it isn't that simple because if there was a solution for more power, it would have been found by now.

193,000 RX-8s were sold globally during its production run and it had quite an aftermarket following during its production and even up to this day. No one in the UK, US, Japan, or anywhere else has managed to make power out of the Renesis in the same way they can with an older 13b peripheral exhaust port design.
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by Eddie_r32 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:14 pm

In the last 2 years big advances have been made in porting and are continuing to, the revs engine Nick is referring to made 203whp which for 30k is a good number and power keeps going up along with reliability and drivability. If they have been on a rolling road there is no need for a run up thedrag strip as you can look at "the area under the line" to asses his drivable it is
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by Dr. FrankenRex » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:43 pm

Just to chime in (albeit prematurely as my engine hasn't been mapped or dyno'd yet) - porting advances are happening all the time. By all means give either Ben or Josh a call up at RR and they will more than happily bend your ear about what they are doing to push the envelope.

Saying "It doesn't make as much power as an older rotary" is a fact, but it's not the point of this discussion. Porting is, without a shadow of a doubt, worth doing if you are having your engine rebuilt. A simple street port will make it breath that little bit easier, and potentially reward you with a little more horsepower - it's not going to give you millions, but to add a street port on to a build is cheaper than a remap on most cars.

Also, that 203whp car from Adam Galtress's car? That's covered 30k as said, but after a dyno tune with RR the day before I picked up Frank, it's now making MORE power than when it was first built and tuned. No new tricks, infact it has FEWER supporting mods than when it was in Adam's car - the RB mani is now on my car, for example - and it's producing MORE power after 30k.

If (and it is a big IF) the porting on my car behaves as expected, then it will certainly have an impact to final output as well as reliability - shockingly.

I'll obviously return to this thread once mine's been on the dyno.
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by rameshr » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:36 pm

From my perspective, the dyno has helped me to understand how much I should spend on a engine build. Even if the FB does 200 at the wheels, it's a lot of money for not much power when compared to other cars, I use mine for trackdays and the odd weekend. I struggle on straights :).

I do see the value in a street port rebuild and spending money on my driving skills along with suspension(which I have done).

When I am a better driver, I think I rather spend my money on a more powerful car. At brands I could not overtake the Honda type-r EP3 on the straights...was all over them in the curves :)
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by kopite72 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:46 pm

guys all this talk of power whilst its nice to have not many people are actually talking about how the car actually drives.A buddy of mine ( tyler82 ) on here had a HB done by RR a few years ago and whilst it was I think circa 181 at the wheels the car goes like an absolute bullet.

Yes he's had a lot of mods done inc a long tube header but trust me its a rocketship.It sounds like nothing I've ever heard and is an absolute blast.i remember coming back from RR and heading to the ferry in Wales being behind him most of the way and it was awesome,spitting two straight lines of flames every so often and the sound!! Good God the sound,all this from a car producing circa 181 at the wheels.

Don't get so hung up on the numbers,its about how she drives IMO,plenty of cars out there with big power that are as dull as dish water..
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FULL RESPRAY

DONE...
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by Dr. FrankenRex » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:02 pm

rameshr wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:36 pm
Even if the FB does 200 at the wheels, it's a lot of money for not much power when compared to other cars

...

I do see the value in a street port rebuild.
Just putting it out there, but most engine builders don't charge that much more for a full bridge compared to a street port... IIRC the standard cost difference at RR between street port and full bridge is only £250. Not insurmountable, no, but if that pushes your car from 190whp to 210whp then that's £250 well spent in my book...

that's a nearly 10% power bump for £250. It's no 2.0l TDI remap, sure, but you're driving a rotary...
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by 13Black » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:58 pm

£300-400 from street to bridge, roughly, depending on where you take it, going off of my latest figures on my spreadsheet (I have the best spreadsheets I know). I don't think everyone includes the little extra for Goopy seals in their prices.
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