Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by Lemon » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:57 pm

ChrisHolmes wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:43 pm
As for Stu beating me by .3hp I am still looking for the correct words to comment!
:mrgreen:
Thanks, Stu

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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by Nicklaus » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:09 pm

ChrisHolmes wrote:Just for info folks Jez only charged us for the 9 cars that attended so I have refunded Nicklaus his £45
Cheers Chris. Very interested by the results from the day!


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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by geofftl1000r » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:22 pm

Thanks to Ramesh & Chris for sorting everything and thanks to all for a great day.
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by njkmr » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:08 am

Time to get a Northern one organised..
Would be interested to see how mine is performing. Especially seen as I fell for the AEM kit...!

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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by TerryH » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:37 am

I've been reading some of the old Dyno threads, trying to make some sence of the results from yesturday. one I came across from 2015 stated how the 8's don't do well on Dynos. As the ECUs are constantly adjusting air fuel mix to adapt to the driving style.

Not sure if this really does effect things that much but the location of the Dyno was close to the M4, with options to come via some nice B roads.

I know a number of people came via the M4, so the cars could have been in fuel saving :^o mode. I had a spirited drive using 2nd and some times 3rd gears, lots of beeps, on the B roads. Could this have inadvertently helped prep the car correctly?

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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by Lemon » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:47 am

AFAIK that is negated when running at WOT

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Thanks, Stu

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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by TerryH » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:07 am

You've done me with the acronyms :oops:
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by PeteH » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:14 am

I think we should applaud all the guys that attended, and were happy to have their results published. =D>

My thoughts on the results are that Rameshr and Eddie_r32 clearly have some problems. The traces don't look normal. The results are not smooth, and the opening of the valves is not at all clear. I wouldn't be surprised if you both didn't have coil issues. Dynos can be really useful for identifying issues, so hopefully you guys will be able to get to the bottom of it. Untakenname's result is not a sensible dyno trace. The car would be utterly undriveable if that was the real power curve. It almost looks like the traction control was massively affecting the throttle, or the guy just didn't have it on full throttle during the run. It also possible your intake valves are very messed up. (I assume the DSC button was pressed to disable the electronics?). All the other results look "sensible" and are in the range of 186.8 to 205.5, which seems like a sensible spread.

I looks to me like the adjustment to go from whp to fly-hp is only about 35bhp. This seems very small to me. If the dyno was a roller dyno then I might expect between 40 and 50bhp adjustment. Did the dyno guy do a run-down on every car, to measure the losses? If the loss was actually 50bhp then the fly-hp would be between 200 and 220, which would be more sensible to me.

On Terry's point, the car only does minor adjustments to its trim to account for driving style. Peak power is governed mainly by the throttle position, and on a dyno run that should be 100%. Changing the mixture trims would only make a small difference. There's no such thing as an "economy setting".

On the AEM issue. The worst place to test an AEM is on the dyno! The AEM will work best on the track, when it has a high speed supply of cold air. On a dyno (even with a fan at the front) the AEM suffers from heat soak. I wouldn't expect the AEM to beat the Mazda intake on a proper back-to-back, but I wouldn't expect it to be worse either. At best there should only be a couple of hp either way. But the AEM is lighter, and looks cooler. So I do think the AEM has value on a modified car, as long as the meshes are in place.

As for the question, what does a "good" 231 make. Brix had a really good run at Rotary Revs, and he got 186bhp at the rear hubs. That seems to be a good baseline for a healthy 231. You lose about 6bhp through the tyres, so something in the region of 180whp on the rollers would seem a good number.
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by Eddie_r32 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:40 am

These were my sparks so Yeai had a leading completely dead. I have an stock air box and a k and n on the way, will return to h dev, take bumper off so a run with Aem then fit the stock box and do a run see what difference it makes on dyno.

I wouldn't question Jez's use of a dyno he knows his stuff and is a well respected tuner in the Nissan world.
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by Conan » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:11 am

Well done everyone.
I agree with PeteH on the power loss and was the first thing I noticed.
If a car puts out 190-200 at the hubs I think 30 bhp is the minimum loss calculation to use.
With tyres on a roller then I think 40 bhp would be the minimum loss calculation to use for similar figures.
The RX-8 does have an efficient drive chain in comparison to some others which would need higher values.
I’m not a dyno expert and i’m not suggesting anything was incorrect with the operation as i’m sure PeteH isn’t.
I believe Chris is putting his on the hub dyno at Rotary Revs soon which will be an interesting comparison.
I’m also interested to see Pete,s calcs on the difference :thumleft:
Pete

PS: On the subject of engine power.
Mazda quoted 231 ps which is 228 hp
This would have been on an engine dyno with a blue printed engine and decent exhaust measured at the shaft.
I have always believed they did obtain this figure. When the engine is fitted to the car they compromise with the exhaust.
228 hp equates to around 195 at the hubs which coincidently is what my basically standard (blue printed) engine with hi-flow exhaust produced at the hubs.
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by PeteH » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:16 am

Yep. I'm not suggesting anyone did anything wrong. Only that untakename's power curve is a long way from anything normal, and there is something significantly wrong somewhere.
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by rameshr » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:34 am

Hi

I have a couple of years old D969, so am pretty sure it's not that. Would be interested to know what's wrong with my graph, I am not sure I know what I am looking for. I have completed a few trackdays but that's all after changing to AEM so nothing to compare with.

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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by mi60o0 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:38 am

Once I sort my broken car just put new mishimotot rad and fan and termostat In I hope I will finish after wrk flush it and put fl22
We can find local dyno to us and try with out Aem and with on the same dyno is few around us and Essex.
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by jondkent » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:01 am

PeteH wrote:Yep. I'm not suggesting anyone did anything wrong. Only that untakename's power curve is a long way from anything normal, and there is something significantly wrong somewhere.
The engine note certainly changed at that point, definite sudden increase in power, so looks like mapping way off somehow or ssv is a problem here



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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by PeteH » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:35 am

rameshr wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:34 am
Hi

I have a couple of years old D969, so am pretty sure it's not that. Would be interested to know what's wrong with my graph, I am not sure I know what I am looking for. I have completed a few trackdays but that's all after changing to AEM so nothing to compare with.

Cheers
If you compare yours with Terry's, Terry's is very smooth, and has three very distinct valleys. These valleys are when each of the intake valves opens. Yours looks much rougher, and you can't see any clear points when the valves open (you can just about see them, but it's not clear). It could certainly be a consequence of having disturbed flow in the intake, from not having proper meshes in the AEM, for example. It's like your pcm is "trying its best", but can't quite work out what throttle / timing / mixture it wants to be using at any particular revs. I'm sure if you could get it smoothed out you would find another 5 or 10 bhp.
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by rameshr » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:05 pm

Cheers will double check my mesh I had this installed a while ago :) maybe even a map might help.


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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by TerryH » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:54 pm

Gent's,

I have to say, thanks for the input, the knowlage this club has is invaluable. The more data sharing and analysis only helps us all appriciate these fine tuned machines more.

Thanks :thumleft:
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by Eddie_r32 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:10 pm

rameshr wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:05 pm
Cheers will double check my mesh I had this installed a while ago :) maybe even a map might help.


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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by Nerdstrike » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:16 pm

ChrisHolmes wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:43 pm
As for Stu beating me by .3hp I am still looking for the correct words to comment!
The correct words are "measurement uncertainty". I imagine the rolling road error bars are larger than 0.2%.

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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by PeteH » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:26 pm

Pump up your tyres by 10psi Chris. It will "add" about 2bhp on a rolling road dyno. Then you'll be the winner. :thumleft:

(Did you all check your pressures before going on the dyno?)
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by untakenname » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:27 pm

Honeycomb meshes are meant to create cleaner airflow for the MAF than screens so it maybe worth trying that with the AEM intake.

jondkent wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:01 am
PeteH wrote:Yep. I'm not suggesting anyone did anything wrong. Only that untakename's power curve is a long way from anything normal, and there is something significantly wrong somewhere.
The engine note certainly changed at that point, definite sudden increase in power, so looks like mapping way off somehow or ssv is a problem here
Yeah, the car has been pulling differently recently, feels like a Vtech coming on cam.

This lunchbreak I've created a video of the runs after they tried sorting it out, after the same run using an expensive high SPL mic placed near to the exhaust and also some footage of the car earlier this year where it sounds different:

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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by mi60o0 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:30 pm

Haha nope my car was sitting for the last three mounts so just sorting trouble after trouble rofl
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by RobinPZ72 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:42 pm

Guys did you get the *.CVS files? Would be interesting to look at the raw data!!!

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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by Dr. FrankenRex » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:46 pm

It'll be interesting to see what mine does when it's mapped and dyno'd on the 3rd of November. OK, not same day and up at RR rather than Horsham, but still an interesting comparison...
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Re: Dyno Day Horsham Developments **21/10**

Post by rameshr » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:59 pm

I don't think we got CVS.
Will be good to see your FB FrankenRex :)
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