DSC, On or Off?

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DSC, On or Off?

Post by warpc0il » Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:43 pm

Many of you taking your car out on track will be tempted to switch Off the DSC (Dynamic Stability Control), because;
- the guy in the pub said you should
- you don't want to be hampered by it
- all your mates switch theirs off
- it would be "gay" not to
Firstly, we've already identified that the man in the pub knows [edited]-all about rotary engined cars and the RX8 in particular. Actually, he thinks he knows but it's nearly all wrong [-X

The DSC on the RX8 isn't there to spoil your fun*, it's not a nanny, unlike many German cars.
It's not intrusive, so don't think of it like training wheels on a bike, it's much more like a safety net for a tightrope walker.
You can still run the tightrope of power, braking and tyre adhesion but if (when) you push it too far then it might just stop you breaking your neck.

Having the DSC light blink occasionally as you go round the track is confirmation that you've got the car on the limit, any more than a blink and you're "over-driving" the road and not getting the best from it. The fast drivers wouldn't have that light coming on at all.

Some of your mates might switch off their DSC, for the reasons above, but what cars are they driving?

If you think that switching it off would make people doubt your manhood, just wait for the reaction when you spin off into the barriers. #-o


* actually, the DSC will prevent you from drifting around the corners with armfulls of opposite lock but try this on a trackday and you'll be black flagged for the session and, in most cases, not invited back on track.

There are times when it's appropriate to switch off the DSC
- Car Handling days, where you explore and deliberately exceed the limits of adhesion on an airfield with masses of run-off.
- Drifting
- Playing donuts in a private carpark
- On the dyno, otherwise you get false results because the front wheels aren't turning.
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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by V8 Power » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:10 pm

I've experiment on track with it on and off and come to conclusion there is little if anything to be gained with it off, for me anyway so I leave it on.
Strange thing is that on my old E39 M5 with twice the power I would turn it off because it was so damned intrusive, felt like someone had chucked the anchor out!
warpc0il wrote:
There are times when it's appropriate to switch off the DSC
- On the dyno, otherwise you get false results because the front wheels aren't turning.
Intrigued by this as I have read before (US forum) that the RX8 has problems on a rolling road due to the ECU knowing that the front wheels are rotating slower than the rears, sensing a problem and cutting power. The more runs that are done the less the retardation or so the theory goes?
So does simply switching off DSC eliminate this?
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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by Conan » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:15 pm

I'll reserve this spot for a post at some point ;)
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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by Eddie_r32 » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:47 pm

I always have it off (giggle). If the back end starts to go I want to be the one to cut the power, however with the tyres I have I rarely lose much grip and if I do I will quickly be able to claw it back. If I am in the situation where I need the DSC to help me in a big way is the time I should not be on the track.
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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by Vian » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:58 pm

Personally I have it on all the time, because I doubt I'm a good enough driver to properly off. And I have no problem admitting that.
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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by mrspiller » Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:22 pm

Very interesting is this , I'll be reading closely


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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by Dazza44 » Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:25 pm

I haven't had the joy or experience on track yet however mine is on all of the time and it's upgraded to voice activation she's normally in the passenger seat saying slow down slow down

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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by PeteH » Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:30 pm

I leave it on.

99% of the time the interventions are helpful (small individual braking events to prevent excessive understeer or overseer, and the occasional more significant intervention to arrest a slide). Only about 1% of the time does it annoy me by cutting power and removing my throttle control. This is usually when I want to deliberately drift a bit on the exit of a slow corner.

99% of the time I can drive as I want, at the limit, without it getting in the way.

I believe Liam runs with it off, which I can understand, because if it did kick in harshly then you would loose a lot of places in a race (whereas for me it's just annoying).
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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by ChrisHolmes » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:04 pm

Conan wrote:I'll reserve this spot for a post at some point ;)
Come on Pete, you have a lot of experience racing so please don't hold back. Say something instead of posting nothing.
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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by 13Black » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:14 pm

My drift steering knuckles confuses the hell out of the car so it's rare that I can take a small roundabout at normal speed without it trying to snap my neck, but before when my setup was standard then it would stay on even for track days.
So much money and hours from skilled engineers must have gone into the DSC that it would be a shame to let it go to waste.
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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by warpc0il » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:33 pm

I should had added that, if the DSC is being intrusive then there's something wrong (or different ) with the car.

The most common cause is mismatched tyres; sizes, brands or even pressures can fool the system into prematurely triggering.

Other faults can be with the abs sensors or the associated wiring, which can get damaged.

Obviously mods that significantly impact the geometry can confuse the algorithms.

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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by V8 Power » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:44 pm

13Black wrote:My drift steering knuckles confuses the hell out of the car so it's rare that I can take a small roundabout at normal speed without it trying to snap my neck, but before when my setup was standard then it would stay on even for track days.
So much money and hours from skilled engineers must have gone into the DSC that it would be a shame to let it go to waste.
It's so strange that cars 10years or so newer manage to get DSC so wrong.
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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by warpc0il » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:51 pm

'elf n safety gone mad...

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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by stewartm » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:25 pm

I tend to drive with it off (not off, off) at the track, as I do find it annoys me when it won't let me tighten a line with the throttle - doing that may not be the quickest route through a corner but it is one the advantages/pleasures of RWD.

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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by Salesy » Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:57 pm

I have done many track days and regularly compete in sprint meetings.

For me i prefer it "OFF" as i find i can control the car the way i want.
One particular instance of it being intrusive is our December trackdays at Brands Hatch, i found coming through clearway trying to get on the power the DSC would trigger and cut power slightly.
For the record i was running same pressures all round and a matched set of Verds.

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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by SeriousSam » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:50 pm

My relative lack of experience of driving the car at and beyond the limits (which I aim to do some more of at the September Car Limits day) means that so far I've always run with the DSC on. It's saved my bacon on track a handful of times when I've been a bit too much of a hero going through a corner, and since I know that I'm likely to get things wrong on track I feel happier with the safety net there.

I also think it's interesting what Clive says about it - he put months of work in to his race car to try and keep the stock DSC system working with his 400BHP FD engine, specifically because the system helped him get faster times on track. If it's good enough for that monster of a car with a driver as good as Clive behind the wheel, it's good enough for me :)
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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by Nerdstrike » Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:39 pm

If I may chip in, I had one occasion in four years of driving where the DSC intervened in a way I felt was unhelpful. I overcooked it going into a tight hairpin and wanted to boot it round to keep the nose in tight. A bit of duggaduggadugga and I left the corner at a modest speed. I adjusted my braking point for the next lap. Basically it detests heroism like an angry marshal.

The 10-year newer GT86 VSC is more aggressive by default, stepping in very early on anything that might become a slide. The torsen is tighter than Mazda's super LSD, and the car is tweaked to have a playful rear, but the VSC then glares it back into line. This is precisely what you don't want when you're having fun in it as it intervenes just before the car's character starts to show. It has a sport mode that makes it much more chuckable, and even allowed me to exit a corner with half a turn of counter-steer, but I think Mazda's DSC is better judged than the Toyota's default VSC.

This is all very distinct from having a Mercedes that is always in the way of its own torque and burns up its own brakes "helping" in ways that cannot be disabled.

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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by 350matt » Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:37 pm

I'd agree
the mazda DSC is very well judged
it helps that the chassis is so extraordinarily capable even in standard trim so perhaps it doesn't have to work as hard as some others

the toyota GT86 system is very intrusive as std, but its sport mode as Nerdstrike says is much better

even to the extent that switching the 'sport' mode on improves the ride as it stops the VSC 'snatching ' at the brakes at every opportunity
you can feel this even on the motorway which is a bit odd

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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by 13Black » Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:47 pm

I might have to record how crazy mine is these days, I'm sure it would put a GT86 to shame.
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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by Dr. FrankenRex » Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:09 am

I used to turn it off as I had staggered tyre setup (235 front, 255 rear) which was fine 90% of the time, but when on track it was a little confused. Now I'm running matched tyres it stays on. Afterall, it's nice and quick to turn it off if you want to have a play - Silverstone in the wet, for example :lol: but fully agree that it saves your bacon more times than it spoils the party.
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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by New Duke » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:54 pm

I had been wondering whether the DSC prevented donuts, and in general how intrusive is was. So thanks Dave. I haven't had a chance to play with it because I always seem to be ferrying these monkeys:
DSC_0100 2.JPG
They like beeps but not tyre squeal.

I guess it only needs to be off once at the wrong time to be game over for the car.

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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by Eddie_r32 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:04 pm

This seems appropriate:p
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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by Dr. FrankenRex » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:32 am

New Duke wrote:I had been wondering whether the DSC prevented donuts, and in general how intrusive is was. So thanks Dave.
Interestingly, I have had a play with DSC on, and it will allow wheelspin a fair amount - moreso in a straight line. When things start getting sideways is when it starts putting it's foot in.
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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by SeriousSam » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:51 am

:whathesaid: I can confirm that. When we did the Rockingham track day at this year's annual meet, the track was so slippery in the morning that on one particular slow hairpin leading to a long straight (Tarzan perhaps?) I booted it on both sighting laps as I exited the corner and got nothing but a load of revs for my trouble. The wheel was dead straight, and the car was just spinning the wheels up.
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Re: DSC, On or Off?

Post by Clive » Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:58 pm

Conan wrote:I'll reserve this spot for a post at some point ;)
Same here :mrgreen:

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