Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
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Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
Well,
I had a great session at Bedford today, with Steve Lewis's help.
The Direzza's really gave a heap more grip, so although on the straights an Evora and a Boxter could pull away, on the twisty bits they certainly couldn't.
However, I decided to be lazy and keep the virtually new set of ET500 pads I had on, and not put the XT's on. Big mistake, as it turned out. Almost half the ET's had disappeared in one really hard 30 minutes session, and the rest went in another full-on 30 minute session. So no pads, and then no brake fluid ...
Now I'm stuck near the track awaiting AA recovery.
In future, now I seem to be pushing significantly harder on track, I'll be using the XT's every time.
By the way, this is no criticism of the ET500's. Horses for courses ...
I had a great session at Bedford today, with Steve Lewis's help.
The Direzza's really gave a heap more grip, so although on the straights an Evora and a Boxter could pull away, on the twisty bits they certainly couldn't.
However, I decided to be lazy and keep the virtually new set of ET500 pads I had on, and not put the XT's on. Big mistake, as it turned out. Almost half the ET's had disappeared in one really hard 30 minutes session, and the rest went in another full-on 30 minute session. So no pads, and then no brake fluid ...
Now I'm stuck near the track awaiting AA recovery.
In future, now I seem to be pushing significantly harder on track, I'll be using the XT's every time.
By the way, this is no criticism of the ET500's. Horses for courses ...
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
More grip, more pace, harder on the brakes. They're not as good as XT960s under the sort of pressure you can put them under with your set up.
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
Will, you were certainly spot-on about the performance effect of the Direzza's (and similar).
I was really surprised reeling the Evora and Boxster (and various others) in quite rapidly in the twisty bits. Shows how good the chassis is. The only things comprehensively quicker through the bends (that I can remember) were a GTR, some open-top thingies, and a couple of GT3's. .
Steve said he'd never seen a set of pads get eaten so quickly!
I was really surprised reeling the Evora and Boxster (and various others) in quite rapidly in the twisty bits. Shows how good the chassis is. The only things comprehensively quicker through the bends (that I can remember) were a GTR, some open-top thingies, and a couple of GT3's. .
Steve said he'd never seen a set of pads get eaten so quickly!
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
I think I have already made my opinions clear on these pads. I have a set on the front at the moment and they are fine for the road.
They are totally unsuitable for track as stated by the manufacturer.
"Not for use on the track, as high temperatures will greatly accelerate pad wear. For track racing, use our XT-Series brake pads."
As Rods taken them down to 50% in 30 mins. I destroyed a set of rears in one track day.
Track pads for track days.
They are totally unsuitable for track as stated by the manufacturer.
"Not for use on the track, as high temperatures will greatly accelerate pad wear. For track racing, use our XT-Series brake pads."
As Rods taken them down to 50% in 30 mins. I destroyed a set of rears in one track day.
Track pads for track days.
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
My fault entirely, I was just being lazy and didn't bother changing to the XT's.
For the road, however, the XT's seem way to squeaky for me, and the ET's (exactly as you say) are a great choice.
Steve did also say that he generally coaches later, harder braking rather than earlier and softer, so I guess that too makes a difference.
For the road, however, the XT's seem way to squeaky for me, and the ET's (exactly as you say) are a great choice.
Steve did also say that he generally coaches later, harder braking rather than earlier and softer, so I guess that too makes a difference.
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
I barely wear the rears on track, I've had the same set of ET500s on the back for two years.
I just run the XTs on the road too, I'm a bit perverse in that I like squeaky brakes. People walk around going "You're brakes are squeaky!"
I'm like "Yeah, because track pads."
In my head, it's cool.
I just run the XTs on the road too, I'm a bit perverse in that I like squeaky brakes. People walk around going "You're brakes are squeaky!"
I'm like "Yeah, because track pads."
In my head, it's cool.
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
I can definitely see where you're coming from with that.
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
Hi Rod,
Obviously its a shame you did fit the XT pads back on but you will know next time, as already said many of us know from experience the 500's has its use if your just starting out but you are obviously going a lot quicker now with the mods you have plus your instructor is obviously teaching you to brake aggressively.
Different people brake differently but as Ian (hypothermia) found, this is not always the quickest way, as you can end up with very little corner speed if your not careful,
In other words you do not want to scrub off too much speed or you find you then need to get the car going again to get out of the corner, whereas you should find that less aggressive braking will keep more corner speed and stop you needing to rely on sheer acceleration to get you off the corner.
You will find many racers will preach "corner speed" rather than "in and out speed" as this normally produces better overall lap times.
One thing I will say is, keep to the ET500's in the back because too much "initial bite" braking will make the back of the car unstable when you do need to brake hard
hope this all helps
Obviously its a shame you did fit the XT pads back on but you will know next time, as already said many of us know from experience the 500's has its use if your just starting out but you are obviously going a lot quicker now with the mods you have plus your instructor is obviously teaching you to brake aggressively.
Different people brake differently but as Ian (hypothermia) found, this is not always the quickest way, as you can end up with very little corner speed if your not careful,
In other words you do not want to scrub off too much speed or you find you then need to get the car going again to get out of the corner, whereas you should find that less aggressive braking will keep more corner speed and stop you needing to rely on sheer acceleration to get you off the corner.
You will find many racers will preach "corner speed" rather than "in and out speed" as this normally produces better overall lap times.
One thing I will say is, keep to the ET500's in the back because too much "initial bite" braking will make the back of the car unstable when you do need to brake hard
hope this all helps
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
The point-n-squirt method works well for BMW's etc that get unstable around corners, but the Rex is all about corner speed, so you shouldn't have to brake hard.
[Clive beat me to it, again]
[Clive beat me to it, again]
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
warpc0il wrote:The point-n-squirt method works well for BMW's etc that get unstable around corners, but the Rex is all about corner speed, so you shouldn't have to brake hard.
[Clive beat me to it, again]
Not meant as a criticism of the RX-8 by any means as before now I have embarrassed two dueling BMW's at Cadwell who's "grunt" of the bends made them difficult to overtake but once clear they were easy to lose, as Dave reiterates "corner speed" is the key especially with an RX-8
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
Basically braking is for wetters.
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
Hi Clive,
Yep, completely my fault. I had gone through a set of 500's at Blyton before in less than a day, and being a bit pushed for time and as the track day was the day after I got back from working on the mine in Ghana, I thought 'oh well, this isn't Blyton, it'll probably be different'
Still, until there was literally nothing left of them they performed superbly; absolutely no fade at all!
I (hope I) will know better next time (and actually act on that knowledge) and, as you say, my instructor (Steve) says his approach is pretty-much to brake late and hard.
And for an all-round pad, that doesn't squeal and produce loads of dust, including some lighter track work, it would seem to me the ET 500 is just excellent. Proof of that is I'll be ordering another set tomorrow!
Yep, completely my fault. I had gone through a set of 500's at Blyton before in less than a day, and being a bit pushed for time and as the track day was the day after I got back from working on the mine in Ghana, I thought 'oh well, this isn't Blyton, it'll probably be different'
Still, until there was literally nothing left of them they performed superbly; absolutely no fade at all!
I (hope I) will know better next time (and actually act on that knowledge) and, as you say, my instructor (Steve) says his approach is pretty-much to brake late and hard.
And for an all-round pad, that doesn't squeal and produce loads of dust, including some lighter track work, it would seem to me the ET 500 is just excellent. Proof of that is I'll be ordering another set tomorrow!
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
Oh, and just on the braking thing, whilst I claim no expertise here, we were on the short-straight SEN circuit today.
When I managed to nail the chicane and the preceding hairpin more or less 'correctly', I was getting an indicated ~110 at the end of the back straight going into the hairpin. (When I didn't get those right, I would only get an indicated ~90 ... Shows the importance of building up for speed, eh?)
That really does seem to me to require a fair dab of the anchors, if you're braking somewhere between the 100 and 50 metre markers and you you have to get round a tight 'U' shaped corner on the (more or less) correct line?
It also seems to me to show what a thrashing the brakes take when the car is pushed.
When I managed to nail the chicane and the preceding hairpin more or less 'correctly', I was getting an indicated ~110 at the end of the back straight going into the hairpin. (When I didn't get those right, I would only get an indicated ~90 ... Shows the importance of building up for speed, eh?)
That really does seem to me to require a fair dab of the anchors, if you're braking somewhere between the 100 and 50 metre markers and you you have to get round a tight 'U' shaped corner on the (more or less) correct line?
It also seems to me to show what a thrashing the brakes take when the car is pushed.
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
Rod I would say try some ebc yellow stuff pads
They are really really durable
They are really really durable
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Stick to XT's not ET's for Hard Track Days - Part 2
Hi, I couldn't work out how to attach a picture to my previous thread, so started a new one. Hope that's OK?\
Well, just to reiterate, I got through an almost-new set of ET500's in 70 or 80 minutes or so of (what for me, anyway) is really hard driving on the Bedford Circuit. In terms of reference, I was braking 25 to (occasionally) ~50 metres later than a number of other cars on the track, and still getting around the corners on the apex (at least occasionally ....). So pushing hard. Hence why I could quickly close up to an Evora and a Boxter on the twisty bits, I guess?
And I know from previous experience (and specific advice from Clive) I should have been on the XT pads, which are way, way more durable in these sorts of conditions; I was just a) pushed for time and b) feeling a bit lazy, so decide to stick with the ET's.
Here's what was left of the front pads. Notice how the edges of the brake backing block on the outside pad are actually bent back. I presume this was a combination of pressure, stress and heat?
And as it turned out I got through the rears too, though they were about ~50% worn or so before the day.
What's really impressive, I think, is that despite all this, those ET500 pads did not fade until one last almighty push of the brake pedal at ~110mph at the end of the straight when I was closing fast on the back of a Clio Cup, having left the braking 30+ metres later than the Renault. And even then the RB kit managed to stop me safely.
I guess that's at least some of what you pay for with the Racing Beat kit.
The kind of inbuilt design and safety margin, where someone has clearly thought long and hard about 'what happens when ...'.
So a big thanks to RB for keeping me, Steve and the car safe to fight another day.
Well, just to reiterate, I got through an almost-new set of ET500's in 70 or 80 minutes or so of (what for me, anyway) is really hard driving on the Bedford Circuit. In terms of reference, I was braking 25 to (occasionally) ~50 metres later than a number of other cars on the track, and still getting around the corners on the apex (at least occasionally ....). So pushing hard. Hence why I could quickly close up to an Evora and a Boxter on the twisty bits, I guess?
And I know from previous experience (and specific advice from Clive) I should have been on the XT pads, which are way, way more durable in these sorts of conditions; I was just a) pushed for time and b) feeling a bit lazy, so decide to stick with the ET's.
Here's what was left of the front pads. Notice how the edges of the brake backing block on the outside pad are actually bent back. I presume this was a combination of pressure, stress and heat?
And as it turned out I got through the rears too, though they were about ~50% worn or so before the day.
What's really impressive, I think, is that despite all this, those ET500 pads did not fade until one last almighty push of the brake pedal at ~110mph at the end of the straight when I was closing fast on the back of a Clio Cup, having left the braking 30+ metres later than the Renault. And even then the RB kit managed to stop me safely.
I guess that's at least some of what you pay for with the Racing Beat kit.
The kind of inbuilt design and safety margin, where someone has clearly thought long and hard about 'what happens when ...'.
So a big thanks to RB for keeping me, Steve and the car safe to fight another day.
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
Wow Rod, didn't realise you was on track that long, I think this is huge testament to a road going RX-8 or indeed any road car that can cope with all the stresses and strains of driving the car hard on-track.
At most briefings people are told to be out for around 10 minutes and then allow a good period of time for everything to cool off, i.e. you really need around 15-20 minutes to let the brakes, engine and transmission cool sufficiently for another go.
I have tried on a few occasions to try and get people realise that if you go to a club meet you will find that each race is only around 10 -12 laps which would only equate to around 15 - 20 minutes on track with a car built for purpose, so to ask a road car to either do a lot of laps straight off or spend too little time in the pits between your track time is a big ask.
At most briefings people are told to be out for around 10 minutes and then allow a good period of time for everything to cool off, i.e. you really need around 15-20 minutes to let the brakes, engine and transmission cool sufficiently for another go.
I have tried on a few occasions to try and get people realise that if you go to a club meet you will find that each race is only around 10 -12 laps which would only equate to around 15 - 20 minutes on track with a car built for purpose, so to ask a road car to either do a lot of laps straight off or spend too little time in the pits between your track time is a big ask.
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
Topics merged, just click on rather that using the quick reply box, to get all the options including smileys and attachments.RX8R3Rod wrote:Hi, I couldn't work out how to attach a picture to my previous thread, so started a new one. Hope that's OK?
If you've already started a response and then realise that you want to add smileys and attachments, then click [Full Editor]
- RX8R3Rod
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
Ah, thanks for that Dave!
Hi Clive, sorry, I was a bit unclear there, that was 70 - 80 minutes in total. So I think it was roughly a 10 - 15 minute session, and then two 30-minute sessions; one before and one after lunch.
But, yes, still pretty long sessions!
Hi Clive, sorry, I was a bit unclear there, that was 70 - 80 minutes in total. So I think it was roughly a 10 - 15 minute session, and then two 30-minute sessions; one before and one after lunch.
But, yes, still pretty long sessions!
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Tein Monosport EDFC Active coilovers, K-Sport BBK 8-pot forge 356mm front, 4-pot BBK 330 mm rear, 20" ATS Racelight, Michelin PS 4 245/30/20, Pettit exhaust, Pettit front and RB rear ARB's, Cusco strut and brake brace, Full Paintshieldx2, Rustmasterx2, and Rustbusterx2, M'Z Custom nose and rear skirts
190 Winning Blue 05-08, R3 Aurora Blue 08-10 ... fabulous friends
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
The different in wear between the inner and outer pad is very significant.
It would be expected, somewhat, on the original calipers as they only have pistons on one side and rely on the caliper sliding to even-out the pressure. The piston side is therefore always the first to make contact and should wear slightly first. However, if the slide pins are sticky then the fixed side can wear at a much greater rate. I've seen cars with 60% left of the outside pads (the ones you can see with the wheel on) while in inside pads (the ones you can't see) are down to the metal!
The RB calipers are opposed piston with a fixed caliper, so the pressure and therefore the wear should be perfectly even.
To get a difference as much as yours, either the caliper is mounted incorrectly with the centerline offset to the disc, or something is reducing the pressure on one side.
This could be sticking pistons or air trapped in one side allowing the pistons on that side to relax slightly.
If those had be cheap pads, especially if they were fakes, I would put it down to inconsistent pad construction, but I can't see that happening with ET500's.
Whatever it is needs sorting, even for the road let alone for the track.
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
Rod, Dave, the uneven wear may not be a problem (stress "may"). My early experience of using the ET500's on track showed they would wear evenly to the point of the wear bar marker. At that point, the pads would wear INCREDIBLY fast, like one 15 minute session would kill the rest of the material. At this rate of wear it's possible some unevenness inner/outer might occur. RB are quite clear that using pad beyond the wear bar is a no-no; "This minimum wear thickness is a checkpoint for pad replacement to prevent severe damage from occurring to the brake system, including rotors and calipers." The problem, as I found out at Cadwell a few years back, was that the rate of wear accelerates as the pad gets thinner and hotter, so the pads may look to be just OK before starting a session and be completely trashed during the session.
Rod, check inner/outer wear evenness up to the point of the wearbar on the next set of fronts. If uneven, then Dave may be correct in another cause.
I've had same experience here as most people, ET500's fantastic for fast road use, but unsuitable for prolonged and late braking use on track (but they do brake without fading to the very last mm, as I found and Rod has confirmed!). I'm also now using Racing brake XT on track, which work very well.
Rod, check inner/outer wear evenness up to the point of the wearbar on the next set of fronts. If uneven, then Dave may be correct in another cause.
I've had same experience here as most people, ET500's fantastic for fast road use, but unsuitable for prolonged and late braking use on track (but they do brake without fading to the very last mm, as I found and Rod has confirmed!). I'm also now using Racing brake XT on track, which work very well.
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- RX8R3Rod
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
Thanks for the info, gents, greatly appreciated!
It's (the wear) the same on both calipers, they've always tended to do this, as far as I'm aware.
I will be careful to check what's happened re wear at the marker next time.
It's (the wear) the same on both calipers, they've always tended to do this, as far as I'm aware.
I will be careful to check what's happened re wear at the marker next time.
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
With the new pads fitted, are the gaps behind the pads the same?
- RX8R3Rod
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
Hi Dave,
I haven't got the new pads on yet (Clive is very kindly taking a peek at the calipers for me) but from memory, the gaps between the caliper and the steel backs of the pads (if I understand you correctly there?) we're pretty-much the same when I first installed the pads.
It's just with both calipers the outside pad has always tended to wear a bit more than the inside one (though just not quite as exaggerated as seen here ).
Braking has always been really good; smooth, with no pull to one side or other.
I haven't got the new pads on yet (Clive is very kindly taking a peek at the calipers for me) but from memory, the gaps between the caliper and the steel backs of the pads (if I understand you correctly there?) we're pretty-much the same when I first installed the pads.
It's just with both calipers the outside pad has always tended to wear a bit more than the inside one (though just not quite as exaggerated as seen here ).
Braking has always been really good; smooth, with no pull to one side or other.
Aluminium R3 Nov 2010
Tein Monosport EDFC Active coilovers, K-Sport BBK 8-pot forge 356mm front, 4-pot BBK 330 mm rear, 20" ATS Racelight, Michelin PS 4 245/30/20, Pettit exhaust, Pettit front and RB rear ARB's, Cusco strut and brake brace, Full Paintshieldx2, Rustmasterx2, and Rustbusterx2, M'Z Custom nose and rear skirts
190 Winning Blue 05-08, R3 Aurora Blue 08-10 ... fabulous friends
Tein Monosport EDFC Active coilovers, K-Sport BBK 8-pot forge 356mm front, 4-pot BBK 330 mm rear, 20" ATS Racelight, Michelin PS 4 245/30/20, Pettit exhaust, Pettit front and RB rear ARB's, Cusco strut and brake brace, Full Paintshieldx2, Rustmasterx2, and Rustbusterx2, M'Z Custom nose and rear skirts
190 Winning Blue 05-08, R3 Aurora Blue 08-10 ... fabulous friends
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
Another (or I should say, yet another!) top reason to support MRP.
I called Clive asking if he had some new calipers (I think I may have managed to knacker mine at Bedford, see below) and he offered to check my calipers before I flexed any credit cards, etc. That really is incredibly decent, and way above and beyond the call, IMHO.
You just ain't going to get service like that from a high-volume, low-margin internet seller.
Anyhow's, as to my potentially knackered calipers ...
Some pictures below of:
- my rear pads (with just about 1 - 1.5mm left, started the day with maybe 50% of the pad left).
- my front outer pad (or what's left of it). Both seem similar. You'll notice the piston is embedded in the back plate of the brake pad.
That the RB pads and brakes in that condition managed to rein me in from ~110 and allow the car to get round a tight hairpin without saying 'hello Armco' is a testament to their quality.
And a serious reminder to me to use the correct pad for the job (XT's in this case) and check the pads when on track much, much more frequently ...
And thanks again Clive.
I called Clive asking if he had some new calipers (I think I may have managed to knacker mine at Bedford, see below) and he offered to check my calipers before I flexed any credit cards, etc. That really is incredibly decent, and way above and beyond the call, IMHO.
You just ain't going to get service like that from a high-volume, low-margin internet seller.
Anyhow's, as to my potentially knackered calipers ...
Some pictures below of:
- my rear pads (with just about 1 - 1.5mm left, started the day with maybe 50% of the pad left).
- my front outer pad (or what's left of it). Both seem similar. You'll notice the piston is embedded in the back plate of the brake pad.
That the RB pads and brakes in that condition managed to rein me in from ~110 and allow the car to get round a tight hairpin without saying 'hello Armco' is a testament to their quality.
And a serious reminder to me to use the correct pad for the job (XT's in this case) and check the pads when on track much, much more frequently ...
And thanks again Clive.
- Attachments
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- Bedford 9 Rear Brake Pad 800.jpg (91.52 KiB) Viewed 2875 times
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- Bedford 9 Brake Caliper 3 800.jpg (89.57 KiB) Viewed 2875 times
Aluminium R3 Nov 2010
Tein Monosport EDFC Active coilovers, K-Sport BBK 8-pot forge 356mm front, 4-pot BBK 330 mm rear, 20" ATS Racelight, Michelin PS 4 245/30/20, Pettit exhaust, Pettit front and RB rear ARB's, Cusco strut and brake brace, Full Paintshieldx2, Rustmasterx2, and Rustbusterx2, M'Z Custom nose and rear skirts
190 Winning Blue 05-08, R3 Aurora Blue 08-10 ... fabulous friends
Tein Monosport EDFC Active coilovers, K-Sport BBK 8-pot forge 356mm front, 4-pot BBK 330 mm rear, 20" ATS Racelight, Michelin PS 4 245/30/20, Pettit exhaust, Pettit front and RB rear ARB's, Cusco strut and brake brace, Full Paintshieldx2, Rustmasterx2, and Rustbusterx2, M'Z Custom nose and rear skirts
190 Winning Blue 05-08, R3 Aurora Blue 08-10 ... fabulous friends
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Re: Stick to XT's not ET pads for hard track days
I've seen that kind of deformation on the backing plate before, due to a (very) long session using stock calipers and ET500 pads at Blyton earlier this year.
I do wonder if some of the wear differences inside/outside are due to the amount of air cooling in the caliper and I've noticed slightly different wear rates on mine as well. As Malcolm said, once the pads get too hot then they wear very quickly for ET500s, and hotter on one side means the extra wear would start earlier.
Hopefully the piston will pop back in - you must have lost some brake fluid getting that out...
Ian.
I do wonder if some of the wear differences inside/outside are due to the amount of air cooling in the caliper and I've noticed slightly different wear rates on mine as well. As Malcolm said, once the pads get too hot then they wear very quickly for ET500s, and hotter on one side means the extra wear would start earlier.
Hopefully the piston will pop back in - you must have lost some brake fluid getting that out...
Ian.
(Former Chairman, Membership Secretary, and long time Admin)
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And still three gears left...
R3 Aurora Blue Mica - Racing Brake calipers, rotors and steel brake lines - Racing Beat exhaust - TARGA2 sensors - Lockwood grilles - blue LEDs - side and fog light upgrades - window tints - Eibach spacers
And still three gears left...