Car Activity and Track day - Q&A

Equipment that may be needed plus general information on track days.
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Car Activity and Track day - Q&A

Post by HypoThermia »

Any info or questions about what to do or how to drive a car on a car event day - post 'em up here for discussion.

Good links and info will make it into this thread http://www.rx8ownersclub.co.uk/forum/vi ... 00&t=34973

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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by HypoThermia »

Ok, I'll set out some criteria for what I think would be of benefit to the wider community here.
  • This discussion thread is aimed at benefiting those who have never been on track or have novice to intermediate experience.
  • Is intended to transfer knowledge and assistance from the more experienced to the less experienced.
  • Information should be relevant rather than encyclopaedic or confusing.
  • The locked thread is a digest so that people don't have to read through 2 dozen threads or one 50 page thread.
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by Will66 »

The techniques described are useful as it lays out the basics and any one who reads this and attempts to apply the basics as described should be safe and have fun on a trackday. As it points out the advanced techniques shouldn't be attempted without plenty of practise somewhere other than a potentially busy trackday.
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by jang »

Tip - If it is your first track day LISTEN to the safety briefing especially flags and track etiquette! You will benefit! but you will always come across the complete T****r who tries to ruin your day :roll: just ignore them and follow the rules.

If track tuition is available take it :!: These people know the track and will help you get the most out of the day.

Enjoy yourself you've paid for it =D> =D>

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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by HypoThermia »

Uh... you're not thinking of a certain BMW driver at Oulton are you? :lol:

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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by NicKD »

Ian,
In your other thread you suggest that you should increase tyre pressure for wet tracks. Typically you reduce pressures to soften the side wall and allow the tyre to distort more to stay in contat with the track as grip levels are reduced and you can not generate the forces needed to distort a firm tyre. The same is true for damper rates.
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by AtomicRex »

NicKD wrote:Ian,
In your other thread you suggest that you should increase tyre pressure for wet tracks. Typically you reduce pressures to soften the side wall and allow the tyre to distort more to stay in contat with the track as grip levels are reduced and you can not generate the forces needed to distort a firm tyre. The same is true for damper rates.
This isn't true....you need to raise the pressures back to standard running pressures.

You drop the pressures on a dry day as you are going to increase the temperature and therefore the volume due to the extra work undertaken by the tyres. As I have mentioned the pressures should be set by the pressure when they are hot....so guess and do a few laps and then set them to about 30-32 all round, this will take into account for the number of left and right hand bends.

On a wet day, you need to increase the pressures as the tyres wont work as hard due to the lesser speeds and will cool quicker due to the water on the circuit. You need to also increase the widths in the block pattern, so that they disperse the water faster.
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by NicKD »

My best advice for novices is to:-

Relax. These are fun social days, not the politically charged F1 circus. No one is there to judge your driving ability or that of your car.

Ignore all the technical race stuff, you are not racing. You don't need information on track temperature and fuel load; that is for people who spend the weekend watching F1. You should however, make sure your car is in good condition as track tend to find weaknesses quite quickly, so if that belt has been squeaking for a while, best to find out why and fix it first.

Take tuition, it will be available. If it is your first time on track ever even ask the instructor to drive the first couple of laps and talk you through it. They are not there to show how fast they can drive.

Have fun, but remember the goal of the day is to take you car home in the same shape that it arrived, not to set lap records. No one is timing anyway.
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by California Style »

Talk to people, and have fun. Don't be afraid to take rides with people. Its a good way to learn the circuit if you are nervous at first too!
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by NicKD »

AtomicRex wrote:This isn't true....you need to raise the pressures back to standard running pressures...
This could get interesting :lol:

I am not wishing to disagree or even state that I am right, however typically and relatively consistently across the MX-5 racing series cold pressures for dry would be 26 and 22 for wet combined with a corresponding reduction in damper rate. You would also typically be using an full tread depth tyre, not a shaved dry one.
When we dropped Malcolm's pressures at Oulton by around 5 psi he reported an much better feel and progression to the car.
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by AtomicRex »

NicKD wrote:This could get interesting :lol:
Interesting indeed ;) :)

I love it when people start a line of I'm not wishing to state I'm right....but! :lol:

Anyway to get back to the debate in hand:

I personally feel it is very old school thought, where people assumed that by lowering the pressures the tyre would move around on the walls and this would increase the temperature and as the temperature and pressure are proportional you would attain the ideal pressure. However given modern suspension, tyres, wishbone design etc these practises have changed.

In the dry you need to maximise the contact patch, there are many reasons for this, but in the wet the more narrow tyre will triumph over the wider tyre. By lowering the pressure you are going to increase the patch and therefore increase the chance of aqua-planing

The blocks in the tyres will close up when you reduce the pressure....surely that cant be a good thing?

The suspension wont work as effectively when you add the extra movement on the tyre wall.

As a rule you set the starting pressures of wet tyres/road tyres in the wet as the hot temps of slicks/road tyres.

Oh and I could play the motorsport dept of Avon tyres card.....but I wont throw that in quite yet :) ;)
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by NicKD »

I bow to your superior card playing ability, mine only says Lola chassis design and is a few years out of date.

8)
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by Naz »

Play nice kids. Track days are for fun. Let's just enjoy them. Advice is good and will always vary and that is the benefit of discussion but let's keep it to that, discussion. People can try whichever they feel happy with or all of them until they find the right technique for them.
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by HypoThermia »

Heh... informative and, while not quite pistols at dawn, I can see that there are going to be different schools of thought. I suppose that every driver is going to want to set up the car to match the driving style adopted for the circuit and the track conditions. Which car you're doing it for, brand of tyres, other suspension settings etc. are all going to be factors leading to choice of tyre settings. Some are even going to be contradictory. Unstated assumptions are going to be key to leading back to answering why particular choices are made.

For my part - sorry for posting up one piece of advice and kicking this off, though I'm not sorry that I've learnt a thing or two. It wasn't my intent to set you off against each other. I guess I'm going to have to adjust this to a softer line in the locked thread... "there are two things that you can do to try and find more grip... find which one works for you on the day".

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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by Will66 »

Personally, I run my semi-slicks or slicks at 32-34 psi depending on ambient temperature but I always use the same pressure all round and I have no problems in the dry. In the wet on road tyres I run 35 psi which is what I use on the road and again I have no problems. I also run my coilovers on their hardest setting in the dry and back it down to a more moderate setting in the wet.
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by NicKD »

Guys, don't stress. Just because me and Jon have a difference of opinion does not mean we are stressed by it. It's just discusion. 8)
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by MetA »

ALWAYS treat your last time out as a cool-down, enjoy the view period.
Trying to "get a better lap" or "get that corner right" or "beat xxx's time" will usually lead to pain.
Experience shows that ego and desire to finish on a high gets the better of new trackday drivers ( and even some who should know better ".
Many end up in the barriers, spun off and if lucky just plain scared.
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by AtomicRex »

^^^^^^

So true!

When I was teaching at Nurburgring we would always state there was never a last lap!

Your cool down lap is very important, as long as you don't get in the way of others by not concentrating, you have time to cool the brakes down, time to let the suspension to cool down, and time to reflect on your laps. Spend a bit more time looking at the turn in point and looking for distance RPs that will help spot the turn in/apex etc

I know people are saying this is out there for fun, but I think if you weigh up the cost of a trackday, time off work, service, tyres and brakes you will be spending a lot of money....so you need to get the most out of the day. This doesn't mean I advocate the need to do like the idiot in the BMW was at Oulton.....but you might as well learn as much as you can, all skills learnt on track are transferable to the road.
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by MetA »

^^^ rofl, often "buy" ring cards with 1-2 laps on during those conversations :)

In the current weather an analogy I was told seems relevant.
Skiers don't go do a double diamond black run at the end of the day but still enjoy every minute on the slopes.
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by Mazda Rotary Parts »

The tyre debate is an interesting one and will point out that Road tyres are a different animal from Race tyres where you are talking about a softness of tyre tread compound that you can stick your finger nail into,

Conversely any Road tyre will feel like concrete in comparison, so dropping a few pounds out of a proper road tyre with normal wide drainage grooves like a Bridgestone as fitted as standard to the RX-8 shouldn't affect the water clearance drastically, simply because the tyre won't be of a soft enough compound to let this happen,

logically a tyre company couldn't build a tyre that would deform to make the tyres contact area so minimal that it would loose grip.

Each person will have different opinions on this subject of pressures but as you become more track experienced you should be able to start feeling the difference tyre pressures will make to the car and arrive at pressures that suit you, be they hard or soft.

Hope this helps
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by brads rex »

At the recent Oulton park track day i noticed a wide variety of tyres in use, from standard road tyres, performance road tyres, or even full race wets.

Firstly, would the type of tyre and its construction have any bearing on your approach to raising or lowering pressures ?.

Secondly, would the use of Nitrogen influence the need to raise or lower pressures ?, or would this render the need to adjust pressures unnecessary ?.

I realise this is'nt strickly a driving technique, but IMO once someone has done a few track days and "got the bug" one of their first purchases will be a spare set of wheels with track rubber.
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by Mazda Rotary Parts »

This may help,

Many of you who have been around me at track days will know I strongly advocate to only go as fast as you feel comfortable with the car as speed will potentialy build with confidence if you want it to,

As regards speed and trackdays, we have a guy who seemingly goes around at half the speed of what the car can achieve whilst keeping out the way of faster cars, however he has fun out there "every time", and the bottom line is, that's all that matters as these should be fun days out.

Track days to me are primaraly are great for people who want to experiance their car much more than they would be able to on the road whilst keeping their licence clean :D
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by AtomicRex »

I completely advocate the use of Nitrogen in a set of race tyres. So much so I have a nitrogen bottle in my support vehicle.

When we ran the tyres on a race day using conventional air you would see a variance in pressure of up to 8 psi. When using Nitrogen this reduced to about 2 psi.

This solely depends on the amount of moisture in the air when filling up. The moisture will heat up quicker and cause the pressure to rise.

The problem with this was the compromise, you either started off close to your ideal pressure and then during the last laps your tyres wouldn't work as effectively, or start lower to finish the race at an optimal pressure. The Nitrogen fills helped with this immensely.

However would I put this in a road tyre? Probably not! You aren't going to be achieving the tyre temps as you would in slicks in a race. So I don't think the variance will be as great. If you can afford it then thats ok....but remember you cant then start mixing as then you will waste the effect.
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by Zarterone »

Mazda Rotary Parts wrote:This may help,

I strongly advocate to only go as fast as you feel comfortable with the car as speed will potentialy build with confidence if you want it to,

As regards speed and trackdays, we have a guy who seemingly goes around at half the speed of what the car can achieve whilst keeping out the way of faster cars, however he has fun out there "every time", and the bottom line is, that's all that matters as these should be fun days out.

Track days to me are primaraly are great for people who want to experiance their car much more than they would be able to on the road whilst keeping their licence clean :D
I totally agree with Clive,

I believe Ian set up this thread to encourage people to do track days and have fun and enjoy their cars, all this speak of tyre pressures differences etc may scare people off.
I spoken to a few people to try get them to go to track days , but most seem to be scared, I must admit I was on my first track day, but I went along because a few club members(which I knew)where going, I honestly don't think that I would have went if I didn't know anyone there.

A lot of people think that track days are dangerous, but as I tell them your probably a lot safer on the track ,than you are actually getting there.

if anybody is reading this thread do try and come to a track day these guys, (and at least one Girl)and me, will have no fear helping you out, in fact we will thoroughly enjoy it

P.S Ian sorry for quoting the above, but I thought it made better sense,with the quote there
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Re: Car Activity and Track day driving techniques - Q&A

Post by Will66 »

:whathesaid:

For the ultimate lap time, adjusting tyre pressures becomes important, however as I have been told at every trackday brief I've been to, you're not there to set lap times and timing is prohibited. Provided your tyres are safe to conduct the trackday and you do not try and set a Senna-esque qualifying pace then it's more about enjoying your car's performance safely without the threat of a speeding fine and with a greatly reduced risk of an accident. A set of semi-slicks will mean you go faster but they're not essential to have fun.
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