Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

For you to showcase what you've done to your car and give other members ideas and inspiration.
User avatar
warpc0il
Spin Doctor
Spin Doctor
Posts: 25972
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:56 pm
RX-8: 231
Colour: Lightning Yellow
Location: Groomsport, Co Down, NI
Has thanked: 470 times
Been thanked: 1905 times
Contact:

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by warpc0il » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:57 pm

Oh yes, forgot you're on coilovers.

In that case check that the ride-height rings haven't self-adjusted.

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk

Dave
The Spin Doctor ™
uǝǝɹɔs ɹnoʎ ʇɹǝʌuı ǝsɐǝld :ɹoɹɹǝ

User avatar
MightyCondor
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 1022
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:14 pm
RX-8: PZ
Colour: Brilliant Black
Location: Reading, Berks
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 374 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:15 pm

Ride height collars are equal height on each of the rear coilovers, so that's not the reason for my measured mismatched ride height.

Did notice a bolt had come undone on my rear strut bar (the one that attaches the bar to it's mounting bracket) which was causing that to rattle around.

Couldn't see anything else on the rear suspension that seemed obviously wrong, but I'm clearly out of my depth here, assuming I still have issues. Will drive in an hour or so and have a listen. Don't think it was the strut bar causing the clunk. but who knows could be lucky

Also... Knob!



Image

Sent from my IN2013 using Tapatalk

User avatar
Vj4sothername
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 3040
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:40 pm
RX-8: 231
Colour: Brilliant Black
Location: Oxford
Has thanked: 1373 times
Been thanked: 322 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by Vj4sothername » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:29 pm

MightyCondor wrote:Ride height collars are equal height on each of the rear coilovers, so that's not the reason for my measured mismatched ride height.

Did notice a bolt had come undone on my rear strut bar (the one that attaches the bar to it's mounting bracket) which was causing that to rattle around.

Couldn't see anything else on the rear suspension that seemed obviously wrong, but I'm clearly out of my depth here, assuming I still have issues. Will drive in an hour or so and have a listen. Don't think it was the strut bar causing the clunk. but who knows could be lucky

Also... Knob!



Image

Sent from my IN2013 using Tapatalk
Fancy Knob!

If you want a a second pair of eyes to have a poke round let me know. Image
These users thanked the author Vj4sothername for the post:
MightyCondor (Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:38 pm)
S1 - 231 - brilliant black
Feb 08 built,
PZ back box,
PZ suspension,
Scratches,
Replacement engine,
Smiles

User avatar
nightfire10
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 4488
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:11 pm
RX-8: 40th Anniversary
Colour: Crystal White
Location: poole dorset
Has thanked: 1144 times
Been thanked: 533 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by nightfire10 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:23 pm

Stop teasing nigel

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

These users thanked the author nightfire10 for the post (total 2):
MightyCondor (Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:24 pm) • GreySilver Beast (Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:49 pm)
Hayward's Street/bridgeported rebuild,595's,Tein coilovers edfc Racingbeat rear anti roll bar oil pres oil temp gauge pod's,lockwood front rear grills,Tinted wind ws folding tow hook's,595s,connect2
To do install sohn tank bracket made but still need to get time to install,caliper painting :thumright:
180 of 400

User avatar
Harrizone
Founder Member
Founder Member
Posts: 7082
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:23 pm
RX-8: 231
Colour: Winning Blue
Location: Southend-on-Sea
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 328 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by Harrizone » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:33 pm

It has been known for the bolts holding the brackets at the top of the coilovers to become loose which could result in the knocking.
Now a distant memory unfortunately.

User avatar
MightyCondor
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 1022
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:14 pm
RX-8: PZ
Colour: Brilliant Black
Location: Reading, Berks
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 374 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:25 pm

Just driven up to my parents and still have my mystery clunk

Sent from my IN2013 using Tapatalk


User avatar
mrspiller
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 2968
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:04 pm
RX-8: 231
Colour: Copper Red
Location: Hengoed - South Wales
Has thanked: 170 times
Been thanked: 464 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by mrspiller » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:27 pm

MightyCondor wrote:Just driven up to my parents and still have my mystery clunk Image

Sent from my IN2013 using Tapatalk
Check the callipers and drop links
I once had a clunk and it was the drop link just need half a turn with big bar as it had started warring


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
These users thanked the author mrspiller for the post:
MightyCondor (Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:27 pm)

User avatar
Conan
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 6212
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:22 pm
RX-8: 231
Colour: Brilliant Black
Location: Cotswolds
Has thanked: 57 times
Been thanked: 734 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by Conan » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:50 pm

Hi Alan,
Not enough info to comment on the knock but assuming that has nothing to do with the low corner.
Lift the front hight 10 mm on the shocks mark and turn the same both sides
Lift the low corner at rear to match other rear
Don’t preload the shocks too much ( just a touch)
Try this and see what it’s like, without knowing valveing and spring rates and a good base set up from the manufacturer who probably never tested their product on an RX-8 it’s a long slow process of trial and error to set a car up correctly.
Did I mention I wasn’t a fan of Meisters on the RX-8 ;)
Good luck
Pete
Events Coordinator. 2014 to 2017

I’m an expert in nothing....I have made mistakes in everything

User avatar
ChrisHolmes
Committee Member
Committee Member
Posts: 19606
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:04 pm
RX-8: 231
Colour: Velocity Red
Location: Cheltenham
Has thanked: 5450 times
Been thanked: 2480 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by ChrisHolmes » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:56 pm

mrspiller wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:27 pm
MightyCondor wrote:Just driven up to my parents and still have my mystery clunk Image

Sent from my IN2013 using Tapatalk
Check the callipers and drop links
I once had a clunk and it was the drop link just need half a turn with big bar as it had started warring


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Check the caliper mounting bolts are tight.
AB Bucket seats and 5 point harnesses
Street Ported 231
Light weight Flywheel
Tein MonoSports with EDFC Active
Racing Beat F&R ARBs
Racing Brake 4 Pot Front Calipers
Racing Brake two piece slotted & drilled discs
LED Rear Lights
LED 3rd Brake light with blink effect
MazdaSpeed skirts
Safety Devices Full cage
Royal Steering wheel
Mishimoto Catch Tank

User avatar
New Duke
Communications Team
Communications Team
Posts: 2277
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:38 pm
RX-8: R3
Colour: Sparkling Black
Location: Colchester, Essex
Has thanked: 768 times
Been thanked: 685 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by New Duke » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:25 pm

Before you go taking bits apart Alan:

I was convinced early this year that one of my arch gaps was 1cm different to the others, and was suspicious of the new PZ suspension (despite it being fitted by bigpete and having been setup by Fergus). I took the car to loads of places with flat surfaces, including my immaculate garage floor, and took measurements to verify that it was the car and not my eye. Then I started investigating potential causes. Basically down the same path as you.

After lots of hair pulling I went back to Fergus and asked him to investigate. He gave me a friendly dressing down and explained my folly in assuming that any flat surface is truly flat, and that the tiniest variance in the ground will throw off ride height measurements. He knows he can accurately measure in his workshop because he has measured the elevation where each wheel sits... to silly accuracy.

Fergus was able to show that on a perfectly level floor, each of my corners was indeed perfectly level. Nothing to see here.

You might have a problem... might just be that.
These users thanked the author New Duke for the post:
MightyCondor (Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:27 pm)

User avatar
MightyCondor
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 1022
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:14 pm
RX-8: PZ
Colour: Brilliant Black
Location: Reading, Berks
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 374 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:55 pm

New Duke wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:25 pm
Before you go taking bits apart Alan:

I was convinced early this year that one of my arch gaps was 1cm different to the others, and was suspicious of the new PZ suspension (despite it being fitted by bigpete and having been setup by Fergus). I took the car to loads of places with flat surfaces, including my immaculate garage floor, and took measurements to verify that it was the car and not my eye. Then I started investigating potential causes. Basically down the same path as you.

After lots of hair pulling I went back to Fergus and asked him to investigate. He gave me a friendly dressing down and explained my folly in assuming that any flat surface is truly flat, and that the tiniest variance in the ground will throw off ride height measurements. He knows he can accurately measure in his workshop because he has measured the elevation where each wheel sits... to silly accuracy.

Fergus was able to show that on a perfectly level floor, each of my corners was indeed perfectly level. Nothing to see here.

You might have a problem... might just be that.

Thanks Haydn. I'm my case it was 2nd hand coilovers (although virtually brand new) fitted by me, so more scope for error there. However both left and right rear are adjusted to the exact same height (I measured the distance between the upper and lower adjustment collars with vernier calipers), so that would mean what that the car itself is uneven, or the ground is...

I had come to the same conclusion re. it not being safe to assume the I've actually measured on perfectly flat ground. I'll try a few more times, and see if I can actually manage more even readings, or at least some variation to prove the point.

Apart from this knock that I need to solve, my priority is to avoid having another trackday like Mallory where I have a car struggling for grip again. All i have actually managed to do so far is grease and reinstall my arb mounts and decide to switch back to my other track wheels for next time. I've not visited Oulton Park before, so don't know how easily I'll run into the cars limits there (not like Mallory which I've done multiple times in different cars so know what both a well setup car and myself as a driver is capable of there).

Thanks to everyone else for the advice. I'm going to check every bolt I can in search of the clunk, maybe replace the droplinks again. We'll see if it's coincidental or not whether or not that I only noticed it after doing the above works. I can sort of believe that freeing up the sway bar (if it was indeed stiff), would allow a droplink issue to shine. I have also managed to have loose brake bolts in the past, so I'm generally quite careful about that now!

Otherwise it's probably time to defer to the professionals if I can't make any progress myself....

User avatar
MightyCondor
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 1022
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:14 pm
RX-8: PZ
Colour: Brilliant Black
Location: Reading, Berks
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 374 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:19 pm

...and the point and associated kudos goes to Wayne. It was the droplink, and I'm now clunk free. The difficultly of trying to sufficiently torque a nylock nut at play again, although it took a few months to loosen just a little. To everyone else, there'll be more chances to play as soon as fate dictates that my ham fisted attempts must come back to bite me again.
These users thanked the author MightyCondor for the post (total 3):
mrspiller (Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:58 pm) • Ainmhidh (Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:01 pm) • ChrisHolmes (Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:17 am)

User avatar
mrspiller
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 2968
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:04 pm
RX-8: 231
Colour: Copper Red
Location: Hengoed - South Wales
Has thanked: 170 times
Been thanked: 464 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by mrspiller » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:59 pm

MightyCondor wrote:...and the point and associated kudos goes to Wayne. It was the droplink, and I'm now clunk free. The difficultly of trying to sufficiently torque a nylock nut at play again, although it took a few months to loosen just a little. To everyone else, there'll be more chances to play as soon as fate dictates that my ham fisted attempts must come back to bite me again.
Ha ha no worries
Put that Point on a board , I’m sure it’ll get wiped off for wrongdoing somewhere down the line Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
MightyCondor
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 1022
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:14 pm
RX-8: PZ
Colour: Brilliant Black
Location: Reading, Berks
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 374 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:02 am

The saga continues. I got a free alignment check this morning and apparently my rear wheels have different TOE settings to each other with the o/s toeing in 5.5mm and with n/s pointing out 1.5mm. I don't know how that converts to the degrees and minutes readings that you'd normally see on a printout. Can anyone enlighten me on that? Having the rear wheels doing different things seems like the likeliest cause of my awful handling at Mallory.

Also I'm suspecting that I have some play in my steering rack. After I first went to Fergus for my alignment, the steering wheel position moved compared to when the car was on his workshop floor and I had to go back for an adjustment. It seems slightly off again to me now, but also it feels slightly sloppy to me. I'm guessing it would be wise to have this looked at before having my alignment corrected. What would the likely cause be?
These users thanked the author MightyCondor for the post:
ChrisHolmes (Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:56 pm)

User avatar
mrspiller
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 2968
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:04 pm
RX-8: 231
Colour: Copper Red
Location: Hengoed - South Wales
Has thanked: 170 times
Been thanked: 464 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by mrspiller » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:06 am

That’ll be your twitchy car then ......
You can get this done with online calculators . Pretty easy to use
1-1.5 toe in on rears is set up for track oriented car . Any more than that and you’ll scrub the inside edge away slowly


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
These users thanked the author mrspiller for the post (total 2):
MightyCondor (Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:11 am) • ChrisHolmes (Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:19 am)

User avatar
MightyCondor
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 1022
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:14 pm
RX-8: PZ
Colour: Brilliant Black
Location: Reading, Berks
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 374 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:24 pm

So back to see Fergus today.

A quick inspection of the entire suspension:

- No play in any bushes although some are visibly showing their age
- Same comments apply to steering u-j. Not looking too pretty and would recommend changing for peace of mind, but seemingly functioning ok
- No coilover setup issues

However my alignment was massively out compared to how Fergus had set it previously. Not sure what's happened in little over 1,000 miles and 2 track days to cause that. The rear n/s especially had shifted, although the fronts had also moved apparently. Fergus was at a bit of a loss to explain this, only musing that maybe it was due to the springs on my coil overs settling down.

Now that Oulton is off, I’ll have to wait until December to see how the car is behaving. Given the time of year, I can only hope for some dry days. Tempted to book Mallory again in hope of having the best direct comparison, although with redundancy looming, maybe it’s not the most responsible decision even if I can try and justify it as a birthday present to myself given that it’s the day after….
These users thanked the author MightyCondor for the post:
ChrisHolmes (Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:57 pm)

User avatar
warpc0il
Spin Doctor
Spin Doctor
Posts: 25972
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:56 pm
RX-8: 231
Colour: Lightning Yellow
Location: Groomsport, Co Down, NI
Has thanked: 470 times
Been thanked: 1905 times
Contact:

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by warpc0il » Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:03 am

Any really nasty potholes in your area?
Dave
The Spin Doctor ™
uǝǝɹɔs ɹnoʎ ʇɹǝʌuı ǝsɐǝld :ɹoɹɹǝ

User avatar
MightyCondor
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 1022
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:14 pm
RX-8: PZ
Colour: Brilliant Black
Location: Reading, Berks
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 374 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:44 am

warpc0il wrote:Any really nasty potholes in your area?
I don't recall hitting a big one. No shortage of small ones around me though.

Sent from my IN2013 using Tapatalk


User avatar
warpc0il
Spin Doctor
Spin Doctor
Posts: 25972
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:56 pm
RX-8: 231
Colour: Lightning Yellow
Location: Groomsport, Co Down, NI
Has thanked: 470 times
Been thanked: 1905 times
Contact:

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by warpc0il » Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:55 am

In NI the policy for reducing the number of pot holes is to let them all join together until there's just a huge one....

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk


Dave
The Spin Doctor ™
uǝǝɹɔs ɹnoʎ ʇɹǝʌuı ǝsɐǝld :ɹoɹɹǝ

User avatar
New Duke
Communications Team
Communications Team
Posts: 2277
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:38 pm
RX-8: R3
Colour: Sparkling Black
Location: Colchester, Essex
Has thanked: 768 times
Been thanked: 685 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by New Duke » Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:22 pm

Last time I went to have my geometry done by Fergus was only five months and 4k...ish miles after he'd previously done it. Mine had fallen way out too. Fergus assumed that I'd been hitting the big sausage kerbs on track (as if!), but no it was just because the A12 into London, and most roads we drive on, are in a terrible state.

That was what convinced me to have my geometry redone every year as part of the servicing routine. My completely unscientific theory is that the harder the suspension, the quicker it's whacked out of alignment by poorly maintained roads.

At least you know nothing's broken.

User avatar
ChrisHolmes
Committee Member
Committee Member
Posts: 19606
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:04 pm
RX-8: 231
Colour: Velocity Red
Location: Cheltenham
Has thanked: 5450 times
Been thanked: 2480 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by ChrisHolmes » Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:39 pm

I agree that hard suspension may well “knock” the eccentric cam adjusters round due to their design. When Fergus does my alignment later this month I will ask him to centre punch the subframe adjacent to the mid point large groove on the eccentric disc and then I can monitor whether it moves or not over time.
AB Bucket seats and 5 point harnesses
Street Ported 231
Light weight Flywheel
Tein MonoSports with EDFC Active
Racing Beat F&R ARBs
Racing Brake 4 Pot Front Calipers
Racing Brake two piece slotted & drilled discs
LED Rear Lights
LED 3rd Brake light with blink effect
MazdaSpeed skirts
Safety Devices Full cage
Royal Steering wheel
Mishimoto Catch Tank

User avatar
MightyCondor
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 1022
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:14 pm
RX-8: PZ
Colour: Brilliant Black
Location: Reading, Berks
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 374 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:58 pm

I noticed a white pen being used to mark the positions this time

Sent from my IN2013 using Tapatalk

These users thanked the author MightyCondor for the post:
ChrisHolmes (Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:14 pm)

User avatar
MightyCondor
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 1022
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:14 pm
RX-8: PZ
Colour: Brilliant Black
Location: Reading, Berks
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 374 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:01 pm

A house call from Luke today to swap my steering uj.

He did that quickly, but not before investigating and diagnosing another issue that was causing a squeaking noise.

Anyway Luke seems happy that my steering is lighter and moving more freely. Sadly I can't drive it at the moment to see for myself, due to spraining my knee (and gaining various other injuries) last week when the handle bar on my bike snapped while I was cycling down the hill towards my house.Image

Sent from my IN2013 using Tapatalk


User avatar
New Duke
Communications Team
Communications Team
Posts: 2277
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:38 pm
RX-8: R3
Colour: Sparkling Black
Location: Colchester, Essex
Has thanked: 768 times
Been thanked: 685 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by New Duke » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:52 pm

Crikey. That happened to me on an alpine descent once, worst injuries I've had. Glad you're 'mostly' alright. Get well soon.
These users thanked the author New Duke for the post:
MightyCondor (Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:51 pm)

User avatar
MightyCondor
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 1022
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:14 pm
RX-8: PZ
Colour: Brilliant Black
Location: Reading, Berks
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 374 times

Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:36 pm

New Duke wrote:Crikey. That happened to me on an alpine descent once, worst injuries I've had. Glad you're 'mostly' alright. Get well soon.
I think this is the most simultaneous injuries I've ever had. Fortunately mostly minor ones. Dozens of grazes and lacerations which are all healing pretty well, although suspect I may gain a few scars from this. Had a few staples removed from my chin yesterday. My limbs are mostly yellowy bruised colours. Only thing really bothering me now is my knee, which is clearly sprained pretty badly.

Given that I hit the road at well over 20mph, I'm lucky that I didn't break any bones.

Sent from my IN2013 using Tapatalk


Post Reply

Return to “Personal Car Projects and Mods”