Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by warpc0il » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:25 am

:whathesaid: just make sure it's the real industrial rubbery black stuff, not the cheap grey stuff most diy stores sell
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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by Ranjan » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:44 am

This is the stuff you want to use....
eBay item number:273509911546

Just buy it of a diameter that is just a little too big for the gap and just jam it in there; no adhesive needed.
Works a treat; all the racers use it.

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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:14 pm

Thanks all. Just got back from a week's holiday yesterday and timed my order so that the Armaflex arrived this morning. I undid the undertray from the front and wedged a length under the radiator. I also found that the rear of my undertray had come out again and one of the fixings had gone M.I.A. Anyway refitted with the help of a cable tie and all seems good.

Took the car out for a few hours this afternoon and found that coolant temps were lower than on my drive back from Pembrey. Non spirited driving is now in the range of 87 to 92 degrees, rather than 90 to 95. Similarly cool days, although today was dry.

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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:18 pm

Took a bit longer than usual what with a week's holiday, busy work and single parenting 2 children for a while, but here's some video from Pembrey. Sadly no GPS data as Harry's Lap Timer has a known issue on Android 10 where it can't export the data (Soon to be fixed apparently). Not the most exciting of videos given the lack of traffic and poor weather conditions.

Edit: Youtube seems to have confused itself and is treating this file as if it's a 3D video. Fixed video to follow.....
Last edited by MightyCondor on Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by ChrisHolmes » Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:50 pm

Ooh! That lens gave me motion sickness!
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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:53 pm

ChrisHolmes wrote:Ooh! That lens gave me motion sickness!
I probably should have waited until YouTube had finished processing before posting the link. Seems to be taking much longer than usual. Hopefully the video will display properly in the morning at 4k 60fps, rather than a 144p letter box...

Edit: It appears that because I used some footage from a 360 cam, my editing software automatically had a box checked that resulted in metadata that has seemingly fooled Youtube. I'm encoding another file now and will try again.

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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:42 pm

OK let's try that again.... Pembrey video now up and working!

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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:54 pm

Car running hot again today. I checked the Armaflex when I got home and it's still there, so my confidence in the car behaving at Mallory next week has evaporated

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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by Dave2112 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:15 pm

What sort of temperatures are you experiencing Alan, My Pz will run at mid 90’s under normal driving, under load it will see 105-110, coasting along or downhill it will drop to about 85. I didn’t have any overheat problems at Pembrey though? I know you said it only occurred on your last set of laps?
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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:24 pm

That's interesting Dave thanks. About the same actually. I was quite alarmed to get up to 100 after driving up a mile long hill at 30. Was between 90 and 100 for the whole trip today.

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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:12 am

Mallory Park last week was eventful. Basically one single day managed to undermine many of the efforts that I've put into the car this year.

One the sighting laps that car suddenly lost power and I struggled just to limp in back. Once it stopped and cut out, it was barely able to restart. I eventually got a CEL for running too lean. With the assistance of a few kind club owners, we quickly pulled of the MAF sensor and then Malcolm with the aid of small mirror spotted that one of the mesh screens from the AEM intake had moved and was scrambling the airflow and confusing the sensor. I removed the screen and the car has been running fine since, after having to learn to idle again. I've ordered a new mesh screen as the offending one seemed a bit deformed, although given that I have to take the bumper off again soon, I'm tempted to switch back to a stock airbox with a Fakingbeat Revi style scoop.

The next issue was overheating. It was pretty bad, with the temps getting to 110 degrees after a couple of laps and then only being able to do a single flying lap followed by a cooldown lap. At the end of the morning, I decided to take the front bumper off and see what I could do. With better access and visibility, it was clear that my previous Armaflex installation wasn't up to scratch as the insultation had shifted backwards in the centre, so air was able to bypass the radiator again. Cables ties were used to fix this in place to the brackets at the bottom of the radiator and i used some excess length to plug the space to the n/s in the same manner. The impact of this was massive and I got through the afternoon with no temperature concerns at all. The car mostly running below 100 degrees for entire stints. Thanks to John (Vj4sothername) for the assistance and supplies on this.

While the bumper was off, another issue was confirmed, which Ian M eagle-eyed as I was commencing. My n/s oil cooler is weeping a little. I've picked up a spare now from BigPete and will have to take the bumper off again and do that.

The biggest issue that I had all day though was what seemed like a fundamental lack of grip. I couldn't carry enough speed through Gerard's and into the Esses's, and that was especially clear when the likes of Malcolm and Nick easily closed on me. I couldn't match that and was forced lap a couple of seconds off my previous pace from 2 years ago. I'm going to give this subject a dedicated post below, but here's a quick comparison between 2018 and 2020 laps:



Other videos from the track day are on the Mallory Thread here:
viewtopic.php?f=100&t=82105&start=175#p1284976
Last edited by MightyCondor on Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:31 am

Mallory Park was a bit of a disheartening experience, as the car struggled for grip all day.
The TCS was very active, but I'm not inclined to think that the system itself was at fault, as there were times when it didn’t activate despite the car feeling unsettled.

I know it’s hard for anyone to pinpoint the issue without actually experiencing what the car was doing for themselves, but I’d welcome ideas of how to investigate or address this.



Breakdown of a lap:
  • Gerard’s was frustrating. I could enter it about 80 and drop down to the low 70’s, but would usually have at least once instance of TCS, usually almost immediately on turning in. From midcorner onwards as it opened up I could then go flat out without issue.
  • The bend at the end off the back straight going into the Esses was another place where I always seemed to have issues. 2 years ago I could slam on the brakes and take the corner at above 75mph. Doing the same this time would generally result in a TCS light and sometimes even a 4 wheel drift.
  • Having the TCS lighting up on the hairpin is a pretty common experience, but again it was happening easier than it should. The back end felt like it was hopping way too easily. Was that the TCS doing that or something else?
  • Although the traction control stayed off coming down the Devil’s Elbow, I was occasionally finding myself washing out wide down there and also felt I could hear something from the rear right. Tyre rubbing perhaps given that I have spacers fitted? Didn’t sound like a suspension clunk.

My Setup:
  • I had new (2 y/o but never used) Federals on the rear, and once used similar aged ones on the front. Tyre pressures hot were about 30psi rear and 32psi front. This is about what I normally use, although have gone a bit lower in the past.
  • Meister R coilivers – 16 levels of adjustability. Started off running them 4 from firmest rear and 2 front and softened them up a few clicks after later in the morning to see if that would help. Was hard to tell if it did, but I did manage to lap a bit quicker, although kept running into the same issues. Would going even softer have helped?
  • Cusco antirollbars – These were fitted on my old car. Am now questioning whether I should take the mounts off and grease them
  • Alignment from FW Motorsport – No idea about the settings as Fergus doesn’t give them out. The car feels pretty neutral and balanced, but could these settings be impacting?
The FW Motorsport alignment has made the car very playful. Again, I might not be spot on here, but when it was breaking free it often felt like the whole car was drifting and I could have both oversteer and understeer at different times too.

Questions:
  • Could an aggressive alignment be upsetting the TCS/DSC?
  • Is the alignment itself a likely suspect and therefore should be adjusted?
  • Was I running my adjustable coilovers on too firm a setting for the track?
  • Were my tyres pressures too high? – I don’t think they were especially high, although I have successfully run lower pressures in the past. This day was generally 30-33psi front and 28-31 rear. Plenty of other RX-8s running Feds and those I asked were running higher pressures with no issues (except V8Power), so again I suspect not.
  • Should I blame this set of tyres? – I hadn’t used this set before, but I’ve used Federals for the last few years and never experienced this kind of behavior.
  • Could I have done anything wrong when installing the antiroll bars or coilovers that would compromise their operation?
  • Is there anything else that I’m not considering? Trace amounts of oil from a weeping cooler leaking onto my left front causing an impact
  • What would be the best course of action to improve the situation?
I can try a different set of tyres at Oulton Park, but I want to do whatever else I can before then.

I had no issues at Pembrey last month on RainSports, but given the conditions, I don't think I was going fast enough anyway to potentially run into these issues.
Last edited by MightyCondor on Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by ChrisHolmes » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:06 pm


245/35 3 year old federal at 26psi cold and on there last legs. Looking at the wear patterns afterward wear was even across the full width front and rear. Alignment settings unknown, as inherited with the car.

Breakdown of a lap:
  • Gerard’s was frustrating. I could enter it about 80 and drop down to the low 70’s, but would usually have at least once instance of TCS, usually almost immediately on turning in. From midcorner onwards as it opened up I could then go flat out without issue. i was entering at 70 ish mostly and the car was steady and I progressively accelerated
  • The bend at the end off the back straight going into the Esses was another place where I always seemed to have issues. 2 years ago I could slam on the brakes and take the corner at above 75mph. Doing the same this time would generally result in a TCS light and sometimes even a 4 wheel drift.
  • Having the TCS lighting up on the hairpin is a pretty common experience, but again it was happening easier than it should. The back end felt like it was hopping way too easily. Was that the TCS doing that or something else?
  • Although the traction control stayed off coming down the Devil’s Elbow, I was occasionally finding myself washing out wide down there and also felt I could hear something from the rear right. Tyre rubbing perhaps given that I have spacers fitted? Didn’t sound like a suspension clunk.
when going wide there I find the car can bottom out as there seems to be a bit of a dip in the surface


My Setup:
  • I had new (2 y/o but never used) Federals on the rear, and once used similar aged ones on the front. Tyre pressures were about 30psi rear and 32psi front. This is about what I normally use, although have gone a bit lower in the past.
  • Meister R coilivers – 16 levels of adjustability. Started off running them 4 from firmest rear and 2 front and softened them up a few clicks after later in the morning to see if that would help. Was hard to tell if it did, but I did manage to lap a bit quicker, although kept running into the same issues. Would going even softer have helped?My TEINs were on the 56 point scale 24 front and 16 rear, dont as me to explain why!
  • Cusco antirollbars – These were fitted on my old car. Am now questioning whether I should take the mounts off and grease themtgese should be silicone greased
  • Alignment from FW Motorsport – No idea about the settings as Fergus doesn’t give them out. The car feels pretty neutral and balanced, but could these settings be impacting?
The FW Motorsport alignment has made the car very playful. Again, I might not be spot on here, but when it was breaking free it often felt like the whole car was drifting and I could have both oversteer and understeer at different times too. Is this not a good set up

Questions:
  • Could an aggressive alignment be upsetting the TCS/DSC?
  • Is the alignment itself a likely suspect and therefore should be adjusted?
  • Was I running my adjustable coilovers on too firm a setting for the track?
  • Were my tyres pressures too high? – I don’t think they were especially high, although I have successfully run lower pressures in the past. This day was generally 30-33psi front and 28-31 rear. Plenty of other RX-8s running Feds and those I asked were running higher pressures with no issues (except V8Power), so again I suspect not.
  • Should I blame this set of tyres? – I hadn’t used this set before, but I’ve used Federals for the last few years and never experienced this kind of behavior.
  • Could I have done anything wrong when installing the antiroll bars or coilovers that would compromise their operation?
  • Is there anything else that I’m not considering? Trace amounts of oil from a weeping cooler leaking onto my left front causing an impact there would be oil traces on the tyre I think if this was the case
  • What would be the best course of action to improve the situation?
I can try a different set of tyres at Oulton Park, but I want to do whatever else I can before then.

I had no issues at Pembrey last month on RainSports, but given the conditions, I don't think I was going fast enough anyway to potentially run into these issues.
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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by mrspiller » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:27 am

Pretty much what Chris said
I’d be interested to see the geo settings .
Tyre pressures a too High , maybe should have dropped them as the day went on
What settings did you have you dampers on .?
I know people worry about old ish tyres
But , most used slicks which tracks the second hand market are normally 3 years old and ha e already been ran quite aggressively with life left in them


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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:35 am

ChrisHolmes wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:06 pm
The FW Motorsport alignment has made the car very playful. Again, I might not be spot on here, but when it was breaking free it often felt like the whole car was drifting and I could have both oversteer and understeer at different times too. Is this not a good set up
It sounds like it should be, and I quite like the characteristics and how communicative it makes the car. As long as there aren't any unintended side effects that reduce to overall grip or confuse the ESC systems.
mrspiller wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:27 am
I’d be interested to see the geo settings .
Unfortunately Fergus doesn't share them. I may find a local place to measure them for me
mrspiller wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:27 am
Tyre pressures a too High , maybe should have dropped them as the day went on
What settings did you have you dampers on .?
I know people worry about old ish tyres
But , most used slicks which tracks the second hand market are normally 3 years old and ha e already been ran quite aggressively with life left in them
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I should have experimented more.

I'm used to running up to about 32PSI (hot) on Federals before starting to feel grip drop off. Although that was on my previous cars. I started the day with lower pressures (say 26 rear 28 front) and was also experiencing issues, so didn't think the issue was tyre pressures at that stage, but I did have the dampers set harder at that stage.

I started off with the Meisters at 2 from firmest on the rear and 4 at the front (out of 16). I softened them each by 2 later in the morning, at which stage my tyre pressures had increased to 30 rear and 32 front.

It's possible that this may have made a small difference as I ended up lapping faster in the afternoon, although it still felt that I was running in to the same issues and the limits of the car were lower than they should have been.

It may be possible that softening the Miesters had a positive impact that was offset by the increased tyre pressures. I wish I'd followed it up by lowering the tyre pressures again and maybe softening the dampers further.

However just based on previous experience having no such issues before running Federals, and tracking 2 previous RX-8s - one with standard shocks and the other with TEINS, I feel that something else is wrong here beyond just damping and tyre pressures.
ChrisHolmes wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:06 pm
My TEINs were on the 56 point scale 24 front and 16 rear,
Is that with 1 being softest or firmest? Either way - looks like I was running nearer max firmness. Not sure how comparable though given that TEINs and Meisters is effectively an apples and pears comparison
Last edited by MightyCondor on Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by Ranjan » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:21 am

Alan,

If I had been there this is what I would have suggested:

With behaviour as you described, firstly tyre pressures – come in and check, and whatever they are, lower to 26 all round and go out again and see any changes if any; this way you can factor in tyre effect.

If no change then check sway bars; attachment and lubrication – I normally carry a tin of GT86 which I spray liberally all over them – makes me feel better.

If no change, set your suspension to full hard all round and go out and see effect, then progressively lower them and see effect.
One of the above usually makes things better.

Fergus’s alignment would be spot on, he doesn’t usually make mistakes.

Ranjan.
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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by warpc0il » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:27 am

I reckon it's all down to a loose nut holding the steering wheel :race: :lol:
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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:38 am

warpc0il wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:27 am
I reckon it's all down to a loose nut holding the steering wheel :race: :lol:
I've been called worse :shock:

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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by Conan » Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:57 pm

Hi Alan,
I was considering whether to do some car set up tips in the members area.
I see a few people had handling problems at Mallory but I haven’t watched any videos yet.
What you describe has nothing to do with tyre pressure (although you should run the same all round) and tyre pressures are always stated hot and reduced to that as soon as you exit the track ( if pressures rise it’s because of moisture in the tyre)
Your car sounds so bad you may have a broken drop link or a problem with a sensor.
What gears were you using where on track
What exit speed at the exit curb ( left ) Gerards
% stiffness of your roll bars over standard
Hight from hub center to wheel arches on level ground
Just for starters 😉
Regards
Pete

PS : Spring rates on the Meisters ( I believe they do two rate options ) ?
PPS : What was the tyre wear like across the tyres
Do you have adjustable drop links
I’m not a fan of the Meisters
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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by New Duke » Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:31 pm

I'm confused why you were running different pressures front and rear Alan? I respect Pete's comment above, but that was quite a difference you had.

Nothing to add to the other advice. Fergus will give you your geo settings if you ask while you're there and he's doing it. I know mine. Although ours will be different as he'll have been able to put more camber on your Meisters than he can on my PZ suspension (if you wanted him to).

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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:28 pm

Conan wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:57 pm
Hi Alan,
I was considering whether to do some car set up tips in the members area.
I see a few people had handling problems at Mallory but I haven’t watched any videos yet.
What you describe has nothing to do with tyre pressure (although you should run the same all round) and tyre pressures are always stated hot and reduced to that as soon as you exit the track ( if pressures rise it’s because of moisture in the tyre)
Your car sounds so bad you may have a broken drop link or a problem with a sensor. Drop links all appear to be in place. I haven’t taken the Federals off yet, so will have a closer look when I do.

I assume you mean wheel speed sensors? Is there any way to test this (other than going full send with with ESC off). Does the system log any fault codes, that someone with fancy software could read?

What gears were you using where on track
4th all the way from the start/finish straight to the hairpin, down to second for the hairpin and in 3rd through Devil’s Elbow
What exit speed at the exit curb ( left ) Gerards
97mph on the speedo in my video above at the start of the kerbs and about 100 at the end of them. The car seemed perfectly happy on full throttle existing the corner, with the twitchy handling really showing up on entry through to midcorner while I was still slowing and then trying to maintain a constant speed. See my video above as it's probably better to see than read
% stiffness of your roll bars over standard
Had to Google this: 130% over standard as quoted on the Essex Rotary website
Hight from hub center to wheel arches on level ground
Unfortunately the car doesn’t live on level ground – so I’ll have to come back on this point

Just for starters 😉
Regards
Pete

PS : Spring rates on the Meisters ( I believe they do two rate options ) ?
Front 8kg/mm Rear 5 KG/mm

PPS : What was the tyre wear like across the tyres
Looks even to me and they certainty got a bit of a workout at Mallory

Do you have adjustable drop links
No

I’m not a fan of the Meisters

One other observation that I’ve just made today is that my Federals were different variants on front and rear. The rear ones have the 220 tread wear and the fronts are 140!
New Duke wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:31 pm
I'm confused why you were running different pressures front and rear Alan? I respect Pete's comment above, but that was quite a difference you had.

Nothing to add to the other advice. Fergus will give you your geo settings if you ask while you're there and he's doing it. I know mine. Although ours will be different as he'll have been able to put more camber on your Meisters than he can on my PZ suspension (if you wanted him to).

I’ve run lower pressures on the rear ever since I started doing track days regularly and was given that advice by another one of the club’s tame ex-racing drivers. He advised running the rears 2psi lower. It’s always served me well up until this point. Although re-reading it, yes I should go same all round now that I'm experiencing issues on the new car. Having looked back at the original advice, I was however running 3-4psi above what I was advised at Mallory, so it seems like I’ve accidentally creeped up a bit over time…

I did ask Fergus, but he said no to me. I obviously don't have the same charm ;) He called my setup a Fast Road one, but stated that it would be fine on track

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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by New Duke » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:13 pm

Yeah if those are RSR Federals you have on (sorry I've lost track) there are two different compounds on sale. I run the softer of the two.

So you effectively had mismatched tyres.

Fergus is like rubber. You've just got to warm him up first :lol:
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MightyCondor (Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:33 pm)

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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:18 pm

Suspension issues continued!
Conan wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:57 pm
Hight from hub center to wheel arches on level ground - got that now - maybe - hope not!
This week I have ticked off some jobs that needed doing after Mallory Park last month:

- Change rear brake pads
- Take off arb mounts and pack with silicone grease. Not sure how stiff they were before, although the rear o/s maybe seemed stiffer than the others.
- Swap AEM intake for stock airbox with Fakingbeat scoop mated using a rubber coupler. Just received a replacement mesh screen for the AEM, so maybe I'll swap back at some point.
- Swap my n/s oil cooler with replacement one that doesn't leak (I hope - should probably check). Looks like my car has had replacement oil lines done at some point in the past, given the fittings are different (not banjo fittings)

First drive out after doing this and I can hear a knocking sound at low speed, which I’m pretty sure wasn’t there before, I think it’s coming from the n/s rear.

Given that the Tesco car park actually had level ground that I don’t have at home, I also measured the height distance from the centre of the centre caps to the wheel arch. At 34.5cm the n/s rear seemed to be 1cm more than the others! I know I’ve had the car in air a few different ways over the past few days, but would it really take that long to settle?
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Vj4sothername (Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:01 pm)

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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by warpc0il » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:25 pm

Check that the o/s rear spring hasn't cracked, right up at the top.
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Re: Once you go black.... (Condor's PZ)

Post by MightyCondor » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:27 pm

Will investigate. Hope not on such young coilovers

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