Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
Just read this from start to finish.
It was a bit like gorging on a "box set" on TV but once you start reading it your hooked...! :xmasthumright:
Fascinating journey and very informative, although like some others have said , I don't get all of the techy stuff but the detail is fantastic all the same .
Looking forward to the next "episodes"
Keep up the good work.
Regards
Rob.
It was a bit like gorging on a "box set" on TV but once you start reading it your hooked...! :xmasthumright:
Fascinating journey and very informative, although like some others have said , I don't get all of the techy stuff but the detail is fantastic all the same .
Looking forward to the next "episodes"
Keep up the good work.
Regards
Rob.
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
Thanks Rob. :xmasthumleft: . I can't believe this is 17 pages already.
Brace yourselves for the next instalment. It's all about flame front speeds, and why torque drops away as the red line approaches....... :xmasgrin:
Brace yourselves for the next instalment. It's all about flame front speeds, and why torque drops away as the red line approaches....... :xmasgrin:
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
Episodes. Now there's an idea. We want video evidence Pete! :xmascool:
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
Next episode:!
The new engine comes without an ECU, so I need to find a stand-alone ecu to run it. The choices are many: Adaptronic, Haltech, Microtech, Link, DTAFast, Motec, AEM.
If anyone has any specific experience I would be grateful to hear your experiences.
Anyway, whichever I choose I will need to write my own base map. I have been researching, and doing sums, and it's all been very interesting. This post will describe the basics behind the ignition map.
Ignition timing is all about trying to fire the mixture at a time that creates the most torque. That basically means firing the mixture so that as much of the expansion stroke as possible is taking place with a fully burned mixture, so that the gas can do the maximum possible work on the rotor. In an ideal world you would instantly generate all the heat (and therefore pressure) at a fraction of a degree past the Top Dead Centre (TDC) point, and let all that pressure work on the rotor for the entire period of the expansion stroke, before exhausting the gas after BDC. In reality you can't burn the mixture instantly, it takes a finite amount of time, so the general rule for piston engines is that you aim to have your combustion fully completed by about 20degrees after TDC (ATDC). The equivalent e-shaft angle in a rotary engine is 30deg ATDC. This is the first important number to remember.
The next important aspect is the speed at which combustion takes place. This is referred to as the "flame front speed", and is not easy to establish. The literature is sparse, and usually refers to low speed single cylinder test engines in labs. But values of between about 10m/s and 35m/s are typical for a turbulent mixture. I will use a value in the middle of this range, 24m/s, for reasons that will become obvious. This is the next important number. It should also be said that the flame front speed slows down when the mixture is weak, or low density (i.e. on part throttle). The flame front speed also speeds up when mixture turbulence is higher.
Next we need to know how far the flame front has to travel. 13B rotors are 80mm wide, and about 180mm long, but they have two spark plugs arranged approximately in the centre of "their half" of the rotor. So the maximum distance the flame has to travel is approximately 40mm to 45mm. So we now know the speed of the flame, and the distance it has to travel, so we know the time it will take to reach full combustion: 0.04m / 24m/s = 0.002s.
We now know how long we have for combustion, and we know it must be done before 30deg ATDC, so it is now simple maths to calculate when we need to initiate combustion. The answer is:
I have put the theoretical ignition advance, and the actual RX-8 map on the plot, and they match very well. There are really good reasons for the parts of the curve when they don't match:
- At low engine speeds the mixture is lower density (poor volumetric efficiency, and heat loss), and the combustion speed is slower than 24m/s, so the timing cannot be as retarded as my calcs suggest. But you don't need to retard that far anyway, since having full combustion closer to TDC is actually a good thing, if you have the time, which you do at slow engine speeds. In my final calc sheet I will adjust my timing maps based on rough corrections for flame speeds, and optimum firing.
- The timing works really well for the peak torque value (at 5500rpm). At peak torque the timing can be set based purely on physics. Everything works nicely, and there is plenty of time for ideal combustion. This is why peak torque is peak torque!
- Beyond peak torque the real ignition map cannot advance as far as the ideal theoretical timing suggests. If you tried to run the theoretically optimum timing at high revs then you would initiate combustion well before TDC, and the mixture burn would become unstable, as the burn would be taking place while the mixture is still compressing. The sudden increase in pressure and temperature causes a run-away situation, and the mixture self-ignites at all places at once. This is called detonation, and rotaries must never detonate. So to avoid this the ignition map is held at almost the same advance, all the way from peak torque to peak power. This is good for avoiding detonation, but does mean the mixture is not fully burned by 30deg ATDC. In fact at peak revs the mixture may not be fully burned until about 70deg ATDC, so the gas cannot do its maximum work against the rotor, and torque is lost. This is a primary reason why torque drops at higher revs, and eventually the power starts to drop as well.
So it should be clear now why there is power to be gained by advancing the ignition timing of a rotary (or any engine), but why doing so brings a greater risk of detonation destroying your apex seals.
A final note: This timing map is only considering the full throttle condition. At part throttle the mixture can be very weak, and that necessitates a much more advanced spark. A proper ignition map is a 2D table that considers both engine speed and engine load. This is when things get really complicated!
I think I'm happy that I can now make a base map for both ignition timing, and fuel injector timing. :xmasthumleft:
The new engine comes without an ECU, so I need to find a stand-alone ecu to run it. The choices are many: Adaptronic, Haltech, Microtech, Link, DTAFast, Motec, AEM.
If anyone has any specific experience I would be grateful to hear your experiences.
Anyway, whichever I choose I will need to write my own base map. I have been researching, and doing sums, and it's all been very interesting. This post will describe the basics behind the ignition map.
Ignition timing is all about trying to fire the mixture at a time that creates the most torque. That basically means firing the mixture so that as much of the expansion stroke as possible is taking place with a fully burned mixture, so that the gas can do the maximum possible work on the rotor. In an ideal world you would instantly generate all the heat (and therefore pressure) at a fraction of a degree past the Top Dead Centre (TDC) point, and let all that pressure work on the rotor for the entire period of the expansion stroke, before exhausting the gas after BDC. In reality you can't burn the mixture instantly, it takes a finite amount of time, so the general rule for piston engines is that you aim to have your combustion fully completed by about 20degrees after TDC (ATDC). The equivalent e-shaft angle in a rotary engine is 30deg ATDC. This is the first important number to remember.
The next important aspect is the speed at which combustion takes place. This is referred to as the "flame front speed", and is not easy to establish. The literature is sparse, and usually refers to low speed single cylinder test engines in labs. But values of between about 10m/s and 35m/s are typical for a turbulent mixture. I will use a value in the middle of this range, 24m/s, for reasons that will become obvious. This is the next important number. It should also be said that the flame front speed slows down when the mixture is weak, or low density (i.e. on part throttle). The flame front speed also speeds up when mixture turbulence is higher.
Next we need to know how far the flame front has to travel. 13B rotors are 80mm wide, and about 180mm long, but they have two spark plugs arranged approximately in the centre of "their half" of the rotor. So the maximum distance the flame has to travel is approximately 40mm to 45mm. So we now know the speed of the flame, and the distance it has to travel, so we know the time it will take to reach full combustion: 0.04m / 24m/s = 0.002s.
We now know how long we have for combustion, and we know it must be done before 30deg ATDC, so it is now simple maths to calculate when we need to initiate combustion. The answer is:
I have put the theoretical ignition advance, and the actual RX-8 map on the plot, and they match very well. There are really good reasons for the parts of the curve when they don't match:
- At low engine speeds the mixture is lower density (poor volumetric efficiency, and heat loss), and the combustion speed is slower than 24m/s, so the timing cannot be as retarded as my calcs suggest. But you don't need to retard that far anyway, since having full combustion closer to TDC is actually a good thing, if you have the time, which you do at slow engine speeds. In my final calc sheet I will adjust my timing maps based on rough corrections for flame speeds, and optimum firing.
- The timing works really well for the peak torque value (at 5500rpm). At peak torque the timing can be set based purely on physics. Everything works nicely, and there is plenty of time for ideal combustion. This is why peak torque is peak torque!
- Beyond peak torque the real ignition map cannot advance as far as the ideal theoretical timing suggests. If you tried to run the theoretically optimum timing at high revs then you would initiate combustion well before TDC, and the mixture burn would become unstable, as the burn would be taking place while the mixture is still compressing. The sudden increase in pressure and temperature causes a run-away situation, and the mixture self-ignites at all places at once. This is called detonation, and rotaries must never detonate. So to avoid this the ignition map is held at almost the same advance, all the way from peak torque to peak power. This is good for avoiding detonation, but does mean the mixture is not fully burned by 30deg ATDC. In fact at peak revs the mixture may not be fully burned until about 70deg ATDC, so the gas cannot do its maximum work against the rotor, and torque is lost. This is a primary reason why torque drops at higher revs, and eventually the power starts to drop as well.
So it should be clear now why there is power to be gained by advancing the ignition timing of a rotary (or any engine), but why doing so brings a greater risk of detonation destroying your apex seals.
A final note: This timing map is only considering the full throttle condition. At part throttle the mixture can be very weak, and that necessitates a much more advanced spark. A proper ignition map is a 2D table that considers both engine speed and engine load. This is when things get really complicated!
I think I'm happy that I can now make a base map for both ignition timing, and fuel injector timing. :xmasthumleft:
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
May help to know unlike piston engines every one I know has never found gains by playing with ignition timing on Rotary's and I am talking about some big 800 BHP plus Rotarys.
Leaving the timing alone takes away a huge variable, because as you will know every change, even a small one, means the air fuel ratio has to change relative to where the spark is performing.
Choice of ECU / don't forget the Adaptronic will keep all your RX-8 chassis functions if you want them. I don't think there is another ECU that will integrate totally with the RX-8 chassis.
Leaving the timing alone takes away a huge variable, because as you will know every change, even a small one, means the air fuel ratio has to change relative to where the spark is performing.
Choice of ECU / don't forget the Adaptronic will keep all your RX-8 chassis functions if you want them. I don't think there is another ECU that will integrate totally with the RX-8 chassis.
REgards
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
Thanks Clive. I am planning to stay close to the RX8 timing maps. I don't want to take risks with the timing. I just thought it was an interesting technical exercise to work out the physics behind it.
I agree about the Adaptronic, and have been talking to the manufacturer to make sure it can support my 20B (It can). I am resigned to losing some functionality, but would like to keep PAS and TC. But if a compatible ecu is offered with a really good sponsorship deal then I would look at that instead.
I agree about the Adaptronic, and have been talking to the manufacturer to make sure it can support my 20B (It can). I am resigned to losing some functionality, but would like to keep PAS and TC. But if a compatible ecu is offered with a really good sponsorship deal then I would look at that instead.
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
As I have dealt with Adaptronic direct for some four years now, PM with the guys name to make sure your dealing with the correct person.
Providing you have a 231 Chassis running a tripple wont be a problem as you will have enough injector feeds also, steering, dash DSC
etc will also be functional using the Adapronic ECU
Providing you have a 231 Chassis running a tripple wont be a problem as you will have enough injector feeds also, steering, dash DSC
etc will also be functional using the Adapronic ECU
REgards
Clive
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
I think that Motec have quite a bit of experience with rotaries as they were 1 of the 1st aftermarket ECU's setup to cope with rotaries and the UK office is very approachable
plus there's the Cosworth Sq6 which should also cope
but if Adaptronic can provide a base map then this will save a lot of time
how are planning on mapping it Pete? on the rollers then tweak on track based on log data?
If the Adaptronic has fuel trims that can be applied to each rotor then it would be worth putting a lambda boss on each primary so you can dial in the fuelling just so on full throttle
you will often pick up 2-3% on a piston engine by doing this and lot more if the inlet manifold is a large one with a single entry
if the ECU also has ignition trims then this too is worth playing with but its trickier to dial in without dynamic pressure measurement
how many knock sensors can the ECU cope with? as if you can run 1 per rotor that'd be splendid as then you can setup the knock control to pull back individual spark trims to squeeze the most out of it plus also provide the best protection to the engine
plus there's the Cosworth Sq6 which should also cope
but if Adaptronic can provide a base map then this will save a lot of time
how are planning on mapping it Pete? on the rollers then tweak on track based on log data?
If the Adaptronic has fuel trims that can be applied to each rotor then it would be worth putting a lambda boss on each primary so you can dial in the fuelling just so on full throttle
you will often pick up 2-3% on a piston engine by doing this and lot more if the inlet manifold is a large one with a single entry
if the ECU also has ignition trims then this too is worth playing with but its trickier to dial in without dynamic pressure measurement
how many knock sensors can the ECU cope with? as if you can run 1 per rotor that'd be splendid as then you can setup the knock control to pull back individual spark trims to squeeze the most out of it plus also provide the best protection to the engine
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
Thanks Matt. It's a useful discussion. I'm still learning. My current thought are:
Motec have a great name, and I know it can run a rotary, but they are expensive and poorly featured compared to others. I havn't ruled them out, but more rotary-focussed ecus currently look a better bet.
I will look it up, but I suspect the same comments as for the Motec will apply. I'm not expecting a base map from anyone. I will write my own.
Hopefully 99% done on the dyno. EuroSpec are a massive plus for me, so dyno time isn't a problem.
Multiple wideband lambda gets expensive! If I had individual throttle bodies then I would consider it, but I don't, so I'm sure I'll tune with only one. I'm currently planning to run the car open loop, so probably won't even run a lambda on the track. This is Club racing, so I can't approach it in the same way as the pros.350matt wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:31 amIf the Adaptronic has fuel trims that can be applied to each rotor then it would be worth putting a lambda boss on each primary so you can dial in the fuelling just so on full throttle
you will often pick up 2-3% on a piston engine by doing this and lot more if the inlet manifold is a large one with a single entry
I'm just playing safe with ignition. The gains from optimising are small, and the danger of blowing the engine with detonation are large. Knock sensors could be useful, but they need to be tuned to recognise knock. That means making the engine knock, and that means likely destroying a 20B! I don't think anyone is keen, from the conversations I've had so far.350matt wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:31 amif the ECU also has ignition trims then this too is worth playing with but its trickier to dial in without dynamic pressure measurement
how many knock sensors can the ECU cope with? as if you can run 1 per rotor that'd be splendid as then you can setup the knock control to pull back individual spark trims to squeeze the most out of it plus also provide the best protection to the engine
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
20B!! excellent news here Pete and very exciting!!! I take it you already have the engine ready to go?
As for ignition timings I concur with the general consensus that Mazda has already done most of the hard work for you, you can advance quite a bit lower down the rev range but up top I tend to be quite conservative with what I do. Besides the lower ranges will not concern you that much.
As for the ECU, I will be a supplier for another company soon which is neither Adaptronic or Motec, their system is very much the same as Adaptronic and I'm yet to bottom out prices and support, some news will be released soon.
Good luck with this one, exciting stuff!
As for ignition timings I concur with the general consensus that Mazda has already done most of the hard work for you, you can advance quite a bit lower down the rev range but up top I tend to be quite conservative with what I do. Besides the lower ranges will not concern you that much.
As for the ECU, I will be a supplier for another company soon which is neither Adaptronic or Motec, their system is very much the same as Adaptronic and I'm yet to bottom out prices and support, some news will be released soon.
Good luck with this one, exciting stuff!
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
Thanks Carl. Yes, the engine is at EuroSpec, and we'll start working out the installation in January, when I take the car down. I'll be interested to see what you end up doing with ecus.
Dave. Yes, I have had a quick look at Syvecs. EuroSpec have been doing a lot with them recently (their Civic Type R was a development mule for a plug and play ecu). They are on the list, but I'm not sure how rotary friendly it is.
Dave. Yes, I have had a quick look at Syvecs. EuroSpec have been doing a lot with them recently (their Civic Type R was a development mule for a plug and play ecu). They are on the list, but I'm not sure how rotary friendly it is.
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
When looking for an ECU I'd 1st check out their I/ O list to check all the things you want to drive can be driven ( this isn't usually an issue these days but it dosen't hurt to ask)
the big one for the rotary is running the twin coil setup and ensuring that the ECU processor can run fast enough to deliver 2 ignition events at high engine speed as a lot of ECU's struggle past 10,000rpm on a conventional 12 cylinder engine ie with 6 firing intervals per crank rotation
the rotaryness of the 20B means its a similar case especially as some ECU's will treat a 2nd spark event as another cylinder firing
so a 13B is already 12 sparks / rev a 20 B is 18 sparks / rev?
the big one for the rotary is running the twin coil setup and ensuring that the ECU processor can run fast enough to deliver 2 ignition events at high engine speed as a lot of ECU's struggle past 10,000rpm on a conventional 12 cylinder engine ie with 6 firing intervals per crank rotation
the rotaryness of the 20B means its a similar case especially as some ECU's will treat a 2nd spark event as another cylinder firing
so a 13B is already 12 sparks / rev a 20 B is 18 sparks / rev?
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
No. They are all one spark per rev per coil. So a 13B is 4 sparks per rev, and a 20B is 6 sparks per rev.
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
Potentially stupid question, but how does that work?
I.e. does one 'rev' count as one combustion or does it count as a full revolution of the eccentric shaft? If the latter then you've actually got 3 ignition cycles on each rotor don't you? So 6 sparks per rotor, or 12 across both as Matt350 says?
Interested to hear an explanation as I'm now confused!
I.e. does one 'rev' count as one combustion or does it count as a full revolution of the eccentric shaft? If the latter then you've actually got 3 ignition cycles on each rotor don't you? So 6 sparks per rotor, or 12 across both as Matt350 says?
Interested to hear an explanation as I'm now confused!
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
Rotors spin at one third e-shaft speed. I thought that was common knowledge One bang per rev per rotor. Each bang has to take place at the same e-shaft angle in order for the "crank" to be at the right angle to generate torque. Nothing else would work. You can design four, five, etc. chamber rotors, but you then have to gear the rotors down by four, five, etc.
And, to clarify, your rev counter reads the e-shaft rotation speed, not the rotor rotation speed.
Peak rotor rotation speed is about 3000rpm. People don't think 4kg of rotor is spinning at 9000rpm, do they? :xmaseek:
And, to clarify, your rev counter reads the e-shaft rotation speed, not the rotor rotation speed.
Peak rotor rotation speed is about 3000rpm. People don't think 4kg of rotor is spinning at 9000rpm, do they? :xmaseek:
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
I did know that the rotor spun at 1/3 the e-shaft speed, but I thought there was still 3x ignition cycles per full rotor rotation. Like a dis:
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
Could have quite a gyroscopic effect to keep the car 'balanced'.
Now a distant memory unfortunately.
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
I'm losing track of the question....?
One rpm on a rotary means one rpm of the e-shaft, and 1/3 rotation of the rotor. Matt's concern was about firing 18 times per rev at 10,000rpm. But this doesn't happen. It fires 3 times per rev at 10,000rpm on the leading, and 3 times per rev on the trailing. The same firing frequency as a 6 cylinder twin spark engine doing 10,000rpm.
I think we are all agreeing. It's plenty of sparks, but should be totally fine for a rotary specific ecu.
One rpm on a rotary means one rpm of the e-shaft, and 1/3 rotation of the rotor. Matt's concern was about firing 18 times per rev at 10,000rpm. But this doesn't happen. It fires 3 times per rev at 10,000rpm on the leading, and 3 times per rev on the trailing. The same firing frequency as a 6 cylinder twin spark engine doing 10,000rpm.
I think we are all agreeing. It's plenty of sparks, but should be totally fine for a rotary specific ecu.
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
Same thing.......Dr. FrankenRex wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:26 pmdoes one 'rev' count as one combustion or does it count as a full revolution of the eccentric shaft?
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
Perhaps, but I think seeing your e-shaft disappear through your front wing could be quite "de-stabilising"!
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
That explains it. I get it now, sorry team
Thanks for explaining!
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
hello Pete
you've probably seen this but it was worth listening to as it goes into a bit more detail about the 20B and its variants and whats involved in a transplant
you've probably seen this but it was worth listening to as it goes into a bit more detail about the 20B and its variants and whats involved in a transplant
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
Thanks Matt. Yes, I have seen it and it's not a bad summary. It did prompt me to look at if I've got an A or B spec motor (I haven't looked yet, and maybe I'd prefer not to know!).
A lot of the difficulties he mentions are applicable to road car transplants, but less so for race cars. His suggested budget looks about right, but is there really anyone who thinks they can wedge a 20B into an 8 for $2k??
I was subscribed to Rotors, but they make about two videos a day, and many of them are just his odd opinions on random stuff, so I unsubscribed.
A lot of the difficulties he mentions are applicable to road car transplants, but less so for race cars. His suggested budget looks about right, but is there really anyone who thinks they can wedge a 20B into an 8 for $2k??
I was subscribed to Rotors, but they make about two videos a day, and many of them are just his odd opinions on random stuff, so I unsubscribed.
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project
its funny that there aren't more 20B MSP engines, I think
looks like hayward rotary did one a few years ago
and yes $2K for any engine transplant is dreaming
in my experience its more like 8-10K for even a simple put a carb fed rover v8 into a capri!
made a decision on the ECU yet?
also reading through your answer about the multi lambda stuff, i didn't mean to have 4 full time sensors ( although that is nice) rather have 1 sensor that you move around to get the data you need on full throttle ramps / mapping then when you come to run the car normally revert to just the 1 in the collector so the individual rotor trims then get left in the map as a passive value
that works pretty well in my expierence
looks like hayward rotary did one a few years ago
and yes $2K for any engine transplant is dreaming
in my experience its more like 8-10K for even a simple put a carb fed rover v8 into a capri!
made a decision on the ECU yet?
also reading through your answer about the multi lambda stuff, i didn't mean to have 4 full time sensors ( although that is nice) rather have 1 sensor that you move around to get the data you need on full throttle ramps / mapping then when you come to run the car normally revert to just the 1 in the collector so the individual rotor trims then get left in the map as a passive value
that works pretty well in my expierence