RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by ChrisHolmes » Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:04 pm

350matt wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:19 pm
well done for getting it on the dyno Chris
why stopping short at 7500rpm though this is a 6 port engine isn't it ? power was still climbing ? Engine & supercharger longevity mainly
also what happened to the torque over 6500rpm is the APV system working ? AFR's OK at this point ? The port valve timing was adjusted after this run to try and get more power but it actually reduced it!
Last edited by ChrisHolmes on Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by qwakers » Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:11 pm

so a bridge port (half bridge iirc?) does make more power with boost then :D

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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by ChrisHolmes » Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:21 pm

qwakers wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:11 pm
so a bridge port (half bridge iirc?) does make more power with boost then :D
Not a lot though and you need the higher revs to utilise a bridgeport
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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by 350matt » Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:03 pm

how does it drive now then ? will you use more than 7500rpm on the road?

also how much boost pressure does the setup make ?

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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by MadTaz » Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:20 pm

Wierd looking lines Chris, are you getting some belt slip at top? That's not the curve I usually see for SC RXs
15th year of ownership and still here :)

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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by ChrisHolmes » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:49 am

350matt wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:03 pm
how does it drive now then ? will you use more than 7500rpm on the road? Doubtful, that’s where the limiter is set

also how much boost pressure does the setup make ? 7psi
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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by ChrisHolmes » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:55 am

MadTaz wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:20 pm
Wierd looking lines Chris, are you getting some belt slip at top? That's not the curve I usually see for SC RXs
The torque seems to fall away but driving the car the pull is constant so I am happy as things are.
Couldn’t hear any belt slip, or anything else for that matter, on the power runs!
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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Devil Car

Post by ChrisHolmes » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:40 am

casey wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:06 am
I have switched to the NGK BUR9EQP/BUR7EQP plugs (as used in the RX-7 FD) with no armatures, having had this happen TWICE, with genuine NGK plugs.

I have only done about 1000 miles so far, but two trackdays, no issues I can discern.

If they are good enough for the 13B turbo, why not?

They are cheaper too ;)
When I compared the BUR plug lengths to the standard plugs I thought they were longer and would therefore bottom out in the Renesis housings. Whilst at Pips he confirmed to me that they are longer and therefore you need a copper washer to compensate for the increased length.
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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by warpc0il » Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:15 am

The copper washer/spacer trick used to be common when switching to alternate plugs for racing engines, back in the day.

However, IME, it was also very common for these plugs to come loose in service, which would then cause its own issues.

Some guys would fit the plugs using Loctite to avoid this but there was then a question as to whether they were then getting a good electrical connection in the head. My argument was that the driven side of the thread would always be in metal-metal contact, so not a problem.

However, one guy made his own "locking compound" which I believe was just copper filings mixed into the Loctite, and when he started winning, everyone else started using it... :roll:
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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by ChrisHolmes » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:15 pm

Finally got everything refitted, the SC assembly needed to come off to access the fuel rails and remove the injectors which I suspected were leaking and causing a very smokey start up.
So after struggling to get the secondary fuel rail out due to my routing of an oil pipe for the remote mounted filter across the engine rather than around the outside of the inlet manifold I had to remove the entire SC assembly to gain enough access to reroute the pipe and then refit the fuel rails. Once fitted I turned on the ignition to pressurise the fuel system and hey presto no leaks so it was on to refitting everything again.
Turned the key to start the engine and it just cranked without a hint of firing and there was a stink of petrol, hmmm! Sure enough the injector top seal or seals were leaking so it back to square one and out with the injectors again.
Hopefully now that I have the oil pipe rerouted I will be able to remove the fuel rails without having to take the whole SC assembly off again.
Ranjan did say the car was just waiting to bite me and it has lived up to its name today.
I am going to buy all new seals to eliminate any chance of using the many old seals I have which may well be hardened from use.
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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by bigpete8 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:47 pm

I'm sure you won't have made the same mistake as me but when I put injectors back in mine I managed to clamp the fuel rail down on One of the connectors for injectors.
Fuel peed everywhere. Even had to straighten the fuel rail bracket to sort it out.
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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by ChrisHolmes » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:42 pm

I reckon that’s exactly what I have done as they didn’t leak when installed previously.
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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by bigpete8 » Sat May 01, 2021 8:21 am

If you think that is the case I would suggest removing the rail to check it over.
I'm sure some one else can confirm but think the two brackets should be level on it.
I clamped it in a vice and applied a little pressure to straighten (didn't take much)
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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by ChrisHolmes » Sun May 02, 2021 10:47 pm

Definitely had a trapped top seal on front injector.
Now for the real puzzler. I thought I had flooded the car so I removed the plugs today and certainly they were shiny and wet but didn’t smell strongly of petrol! Got the blow lamp out to dry them and there was no orange flame, nor did the liquid evaporate quickly, not surprisingly really when you read the next bit.
I put some paper towel under the plug holes and cranked the engine to blow out the chambers. Ignition and fuel pump fuses pulled out and of fluid came out which was very oily and red!
2T leaking into the chambers when the car is left overnight would explain the smokey starts but why is it occurring?
So suggestions please on how excess 2T could be getting into the chambers.
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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by qwakers » Sun May 02, 2021 10:50 pm

Has it got a cofs (I would assume it has?) leaking oil injectors would be my guess.

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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by warpc0il » Sun May 02, 2021 11:06 pm

The OMP is a positive displacement pump, so it shouldn't be possible for oil to just run through under gravity, even if the oil injectors were leaking.
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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by ChrisHolmes » Sun May 02, 2021 11:07 pm

That’s what my brain tells me but it’s getting in there somehow.
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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by warpc0il » Sun May 02, 2021 11:21 pm

There was a thread many years ago about a car that the sump oil level would rise after being left for a few weeks, since fitting a Sohn, and the 2T tank level was dropping by the same amount.

The only explanation was that the 2T was draining through the OMP and finding it's way into the sump.

Unfortunately we never got to the details of the investigation, for unrelated reasons.

My car, which has a Sohn with the tank mounted as high as possible in the engine bay, does smoke (not just steam) when first started after a long lay-off, and never at any other times.

I did consider fitting a solenoid valve in the feed line, but the implications of failure weren't worth the risk.
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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by 350matt » Mon May 03, 2021 10:20 am

warpc0il wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 11:06 pm
The OMP is a positive displacement pump, so it shouldn't be possible for oil to just run through under gravity, even if the oil injectors were leaking.
not quite true Dave
any PD pump will have a rate of internal leakage and the OMP is just a pair of gears so its not that sophisticated so in its original use its fed with main gallery oil from the main pump
whereas most sohn installations have the tank high up in the engine bay so there's a reasonable head, plus 2T oil is very thin so will readily flow through gaps that engine oil will not

the fix will be to mount the OMP pump pickup lower in the engine bay potentially you could have a long thin tank and run the pipe from the bottom of that
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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by ChrisHolmes » Mon May 03, 2021 10:41 am

350matt wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 10:20 am
warpc0il wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 11:06 pm
The OMP is a positive displacement pump, so it shouldn't be possible for oil to just run through under gravity, even if the oil injectors were leaking.
not quite true Dave
any PD pump will have a rate of internal leakage and the OMP is just a pair of gears so its not that sophisticated so in its original use its fed with main gallery oil from the main pump
whereas most sohn installations have the tank high up in the engine bay so there's a reasonable head, plus 2T oil is very thin so will readily flow through gaps that engine oil will not

the fix will be to mount the OMP pump pickup lower in the engine bay potentially you could have a long thin tank and run the pipe from the bottom of that
Hmm! thats not the best of news, but does set my mind at rest that I don't have a serious mechanical issue in the engine. I think my solution is going to be a manual shut off valve in the feed line where it runs across the engine bay cross member which will stop the gravity feed pressure when the car is parked up for extended periods, or even over night! A pain to have to do but better that than flooding the motor and or smoking the neighbourhood out!
Alternatively maybe I could just swap the OMP for another to see if that makes a difference as it could be internal wear I suppose.
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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by qwakers » Mon May 03, 2021 12:05 pm

I have the same smokey startup after it's been stood for a long time, and for the same reason. But it can be parked for months at a time so I simply accept it it's not a issue if used regularly.

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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by warpc0il » Mon May 03, 2021 12:27 pm

While it probably doesn't do the cat much good having that initial smoke running through, it's unlikely to do the engine any harm.

It guarantees seal lubrication for that next start-up and the clean 2T may even soften any existing carbon deposits.

I wonder if the "stop" position of a Renesis is random or if it had a preferred stop orientation, like most 2 and 4-pot piston engines.

Anyway my '04 has been running the Sohn for 8 years and is still on the original cat, which passes the NI gov'mint-run MOT emissions tests (so far).

I used to change the plugs every couple of years, when she was being used as a daily, but every time I've checked them since, they've been too good to replace, certainly not wet or sooted.

I suppose, if enough oil ran through then there'd be a risk of hydraulic lock, but that should just jam the started without doing any harm, as there's no momentum. Unlike suddenly ingesting water into a running engine.
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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by ChrisHolmes » Tue May 04, 2021 4:58 pm

So this afternoon when checking the vacuum and vent hose connections for the air jet pipe, oil jet block etc; I blew into the air jet pipe and this produced a gurgle sound and not the hiss I expected. Hmm! It didn’t sound like a petrol gurgle and there was no smell of petrol. As I have the injectors out I fed a length is flexible pipe down through No 2 injector hole and again blew gentle, same sound! A gentle suck and the tube filled with red fluid which can only be 2 stroke oil which must be about 1cm deep in the inlet manifold. No wonder it smokes on start up and flooded the other day.
But how is it getting in there and why?
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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by warpc0il » Tue May 04, 2021 5:11 pm

The oil injectors have a system to "balance" the intake vacuum, to ensure that the oil delivery rate is totally controlled by the OMP and not drawn through by intake vacuum.

You can override this by blocking the vacuum pipe connections to the manifold, which is quite handy if you want to flush the supply lines and injectors with Seafoam to clean, or just force-fill with oil having worked on the OMP.

Pulling the pipe off and just putting your finger over the end does that job, for seconds at a time.

With FI you might have a significant difference in vacuum, or even a positive pressure, when comparing the oil injector location to that of the balance pipe connection.
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Re: RR54 SC Track Project AKA The Red Devil

Post by ChrisHolmes » Tue May 04, 2021 5:51 pm

Thoughts dump!
Air jet NA is always a vacuum, but for FI on throttle will be boost pressure
Oil jet pipe NA is atmospheric pressure at all times but slight negative pressure possibly due to Venturi effect or air filter restriction
When the above two are T,d as Pettit instructs then as the potentially the oil injector pipe could see vacuum and boost thus affecting injector action.
I am going to connect the air jet directly to the inlet manifold and vent the oil jet pipe to atmosphere or add another inlet connection.
Hopefully the oil in the inlets will not cause flooding again but given what just blew out during a 10 second crank just now I am not hopeful!
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