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Lee's Kuro Revival

For you to showcase what you've done to your car and give other members ideas and inspiration.
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LeeW
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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by LeeW » Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:30 pm

Small update.


IMG_0405.jpeg


I've been running the Miltek/Pettit Catback with a Japspeed HiFlow Cat for the last week or so as a little test to see how loud I think things are going to get, but this morning I refit the stock catback so I could get my base dyno run done. I know I'm not going to be doing anything that hasn't been done before with my Kuro but I still want to track the 'progress' that I make and see what changes do what.

So heres the stock set up overlaid print out:


IMG_0403.jpeg


I know this doesn't really mean a lot in isolation but does this look about right for a healthy stock 231? 157.6hp at the wheels seems in the region of normal and to be expected from what I've read. The guys at EST said that it's a "tough dyno" but I'm sure they say that to everyone just to prep peoples expectations....! The real interest will come at the next dyno when the RRP single resonated DeCat, Miltek/Pettit Catback and AEM CAI go on. Better or worse predictions..? At least dyno no.3 should yield the right results following the remap...
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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by 350matt » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:16 pm

I'd ask where they were measuring the air temperature as the 8.8 degrees they're showing on the printout is pretty low
so this would mean the correction factor ( whichever one they're using) will be factoring the power down from the raw figures and if its not right at the engine intake point then it will be 'unkind' to your engine

do they have an uncorrected figure for you?

also regarding the reluctant gearshift, 1st thing to try is some fresh oil and make sure you use a GL4 type the redline 75W80 seems to work well and helped mine with a sticky shift
and you can aslo adjust the clutch pedal to remove most of the slack

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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by Neilparry » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:00 pm

Just put my well used 2nd hand 231 engine with no issues I had off Dave 2112 on the dyno the 1st of December
Image
and the result was close to yours. With a full Toyo decat system and D 585’s
:wash:

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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by LeeW » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:13 pm

350matt wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:16 pm
I'd ask where they were measuring the air temperature as the 8.8 degrees they're showing on the printout is pretty low
so this would mean the correction factor ( whichever one they're using) will be factoring the power down from the raw figures and if its not right at the engine intake point then it will be 'unkind' to your engine

do they have an uncorrected figure for you?

also regarding the reluctant gearshift, 1st thing to try is some fresh oil and make sure you use a GL4 type the redline 75W80 seems to work well and helped mine with a sticky shift
and you can aslo adjust the clutch pedal to remove most of the slack
8.8 was the same as what my car ambient temp was saying to be honest, it was chilly today around East Sussex!
The intake temp probe was just above the stock airbox under the bonnet when I saw it, and the bonnet was just ajar a half inch or so. They do have a massive fan system on the wall there, that seemed like it was shifting a good bit of air. I can't comment as to whether 14c is a realistic figure, I can't see why it wouldn't be correct though?

I was assuming that the uncorrected figure was the blue line "wheel power" and this is what the rollers were reading. then the red line is the corrected figure they magic up with their factors. hence not really regarding the 209 number and focusing on the 157...?


I don't know if you're handle is because you have a 350Z but I went with my friend today who has a 40th Anniversary 370z and it made 250 and the wheels with a corrected number of 315hp. He's just got a cheapish, set of back boxes on it but it sounds great for a V6.


I changed all the oils when I first got the car running and used TRX Semi-Synth Transmition oil 75w-90 from Rotary Revs as it says to use this for gearbox and diff on their website. I did notice that it's a GL4/5 blend though. Maybe I should look at going GL4 if that's recommended... Would the oil cause issues on just that one shift from 3rd to 2nd?
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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by 13Black » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:36 pm

Although on their shop it now says Semi-synth, I'm certain it's actually the Fully-synth stuff they sell.
The semi variety is about half the price - I tried it and it seemed awful.
I later switched to the Fully-synth that you have but my gearbox is stuffed I think.

Now back on Redline MT90 which may be a smidge better but it's early days and my choice of oil now is probably somewhat moot. Similarly it's my 2nd gear synchro that seems the worst, particularly coming from 3rd where I have to double declutch while heel & toe-ing - took some practice but I think I've got it now.

Might be worth a go trying Redline.
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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by LeeW » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:48 pm

13Black wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:36 pm
Although on their shop it now says Semi-synth, I'm certain it's actually the Fully-synth stuff they sell.
The semi variety is about half the price - I tried it and it seemed awful.
I later switched to the Fully-synth that you have but my gearbox is stuffed I think.

Now back on Redline MT90 which may be a smidge better but it's early days and my choice of oil now is probably somewhat moot. Similarly it's my 2nd gear synchro that seems the worst, particularly coming from 3rd where I have to double declutch while heel & toe-ing - took some practice but I think I've got it now.

Might be worth a go trying Redline.
Ah ok thanks for the info. I’ve tried revmatching and double clutching it nothing seems to make it take. Only waiting for what seems like a dogs age for the revs to fall works. :(

I’ll give the redline a go and report back. :thumleft:
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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by LeeW » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:53 pm

Neilparry wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:00 pm
Just put my well used 2nd hand 231 engine with no issues I had off Dave 2112 on the dyno the 1st of December
Image
and the result was close to yours. With a full Toyo decat system and D 585’s
Ah cool, I have RRD585s too and a hiflow cat and classing that as stock. Loving the flame shot there, can’t wait to go decat and get the flames going. I know it’s childish but if it’s not going to be very powerful then getting some flames out the back with a crazy chainsaw sounding exhaust is a small consolation for us to smile about.
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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by Neilparry » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:59 pm

I dyno’d it as a benchmark reading as I plan to rebuild a ported engine in my VR one then swap it into the blue track one.
Then see the difference in figures??
Mind you the decat is coming back off as it’s too loud for uk tracks.


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:wash:

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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by 350matt » Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:09 am

LeeW wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:13 pm
350matt wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:16 pm
I'd ask where they were measuring the air temperature as the 8.8 degrees they're showing on the printout is pretty low
so this would mean the correction factor ( whichever one they're using) will be factoring the power down from the raw figures and if its not right at the engine intake point then it will be 'unkind' to your engine

do they have an uncorrected figure for you?

also regarding the reluctant gearshift, 1st thing to try is some fresh oil and make sure you use a GL4 type the redline 75W80 seems to work well and helped mine with a sticky shift
and you can aslo adjust the clutch pedal to remove most of the slack
8.8 was the same as what my car ambient temp was saying to be honest, it was chilly today around East Sussex!
The intake temp probe was just above the stock airbox under the bonnet when I saw it, and the bonnet was just ajar a half inch or so. They do have a massive fan system on the wall there, that seemed like it was shifting a good bit of air. I can't comment as to whether 14c is a realistic figure, I can't see why it wouldn't be correct though?

I was assuming that the uncorrected figure was the blue line "wheel power" and this is what the rollers were reading. then the red line is the corrected figure they magic up with their factors. hence not really regarding the 209 number and focusing on the 157...?


I don't know if you're handle is because you have a 350Z but I went with my friend today who has a 40th Anniversary 370z and it made 250 and the wheels with a corrected number of 315hp. He's just got a cheapish, set of back boxes on it but it sounds great for a V6.


I changed all the oils when I first got the car running and used TRX Semi-Synth Transmition oil 75w-90 from Rotary Revs as it says to use this for gearbox and diff on their website. I did notice that it's a GL4/5 blend though. Maybe I should look at going GL4 if that's recommended... Would the oil cause issues on just that one shift from 3rd to 2nd?
I used to have an old 350i TVR and have kept that handle ever since..

the power correction figure should be taken as close to the point of where the engine air enters the engine, so while the point of the entry at the front of the car isn't bad the air can increase over this point by several degrees and this will skew the correction by a few percent
so a good thing to check is the IAT figure off a scan tool where its read from the MAF sensor

its telling that the 370z power figure is meant to be 323bhp and your mates recorded 315 with a potentially lower back pressure exhaust
so I'd say that dyno is reading at least 3% too low
so the 157 could be 162 ? so a reasonable figure it would seem for a stock 231
can you ask your tester to log the lambda sensor at the same time on the next run too?

downshifting puts a lot of strain on the synchro's so a better oil can really help so thats well worth a try as the next step

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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by LeeW » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:04 pm

Changed the gearbox oil from the Millers TRX sold on the RR website to the Redline and the gearbox woes are over. It is perfect now and loving it. Can't believe the same weight of oil with a GL4 vs a GL4/5 blend makes the world of difference.

Dyno visit 2 done with RRP single res decat, Miltek/Pettit Catback and AEM. Results.....
Dyno 1vs2.png
flame.jpg
RRP laptop arriving soon for a remap, looking forward to the process and redynoing to see what can be done with the computer.

When thats all done and dusted will be moving on to aesthetic changes. My custom lights are in about their 5th revision of design, hoping to pull the trigger soon and commit to sealing them back up and installing them. Then things like, steering wheel and interior flocking etc to make it a little nicer. Then exterior wise still thinking about what to do...
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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by 350matt » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:59 am

So If I'm reading that chart right you've picked up 8Bhp at the top end? that seems quite respectable for a sports exhaust and intake with no map changes

do you have a chart with just corrected flywheel bhp on it for stock and with changes ?

and whats the top wobbly line? uncorrected bhp?

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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by warpc0il » Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:12 pm

350matt wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:59 am
whats the top wobbly line? uncorrected bhp?
That would be the sphincter clench sensor :shock:
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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by LeeW » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:34 pm

350matt wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:59 am
So If I'm reading that chart right you've picked up 8Bhp at the top end? that seems quite respectable for a sports exhaust and intake with no map changes

do you have a chart with just corrected flywheel bhp on it for stock and with changes ?

and whats the top wobbly line? uncorrected bhp?
Sorry I done quite a crude overlay of the two graphs and its not very clear what's what.

Red is "corrected power"
Blue is "wheel power". Which I believe to be uncorrected, and simply the HP being put down at the wheels on the rollers...?
Yellow is torque.
Green is drag.

And the upper version of all those colours is the visit with just exhaust and intake changes, no map changes. The lower set of lines is the stock.

I have had RRP remap now and dyno'd it a third time. However, annoyingly the results from the dyno were not good and it seems that there may be reliability issues with how they use the dyno. I haven't yet taken it up with them but this whole process may have been completely pointless.
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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by LeeW » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:42 pm

And I'm not sure why theres the wobble at the top end after the modifications, it wasn't something noticeable when driving in the real world. Here's a different version of the same graph. I've removed the results from post mapping as like I said, it's currently unknown as to the accuracy of the results (and I suppose the accuracy of all the results!)

The irony of it all isn't lost on me.

I would LOVE to have a proper conversation with someone that could really tell me what is going on with a rolling road. Shame I can't make the AGM, as it would have been a great opportunity to meet a lot of people and a good ol' chinwag about a lot of things.
Lee's RX8.png
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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by 350matt » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:40 pm

Well don't be too disheartened you've got a solid gain there from the 1st round of mods

I presume its now reading less power on the dyno after being mapped? so where is there corrected air pressure and temperature read from? was this the same place each time? what was the variation each time?
when they hooked up the exhaust extraction was this done the same way each time?
have the tyre pressures been checked each time you've been on the dyno?
was the brake ( rolling road) temperature monitored each time?
is the correction factor the same each time?

any engine testing has to be so careful to only change 1 thing at a time and ensure all the running conditions are the same each time
I do feel for you as there are all too many rolling road operators out there who don't maintain the kit or understand how to use it.

where was this done by the way? you only mention EST?

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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by LeeW » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:26 pm

350matt wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:40 pm
Well don't be too disheartened you've got a solid gain there from the 1st round of mods

I presume its now reading less power on the dyno after being mapped? so where is there corrected air pressure and temperature read from? was this the same place each time? what was the variation each time?
when they hooked up the exhaust extraction was this done the same way each time?
have the tyre pressures been checked each time you've been on the dyno?
was the brake ( rolling road) temperature monitored each time?
is the correction factor the same each time?

any engine testing has to be so careful to only change 1 thing at a time and ensure all the running conditions are the same each time
I do feel for you as there are all too many rolling road operators out there who don't maintain the kit or understand how to use it.

where was this done by the way? you only mention EST?
Well, the point is, if the dyno runs aren't being controlled properly then my "gains" shown from 1st and 2nd visits may actually not be true at all! For instance, I already know they done the two visits in different gears! So I'm taking the gains shown in second visit with a pinch of salt anyway, as annoyingly I know they weren't identical runs. On the third visit I made the point of making sure it was in the same gear as the second visit so I could get an idea of how successful the remap was.

All runs done at EST, please give me SOME credit... I wouldn't go to different dynos each time!
Correction Factors = 0% for every pull.
Not sure about the rolling road temperatures being monitored.
I checked the tyre pressures using the same compressor at the petrol station 100 yards down the road as I arrived each time.
No exhaust extraction equipment currently installed there as they haven't finished the cell walls yet, so same conditions each time.
I believe the dyno has a weather centre built into it to gather ambient temperature, pressure and humidity information:
1st visit - 8.8c, 63.7% and 1003.1hPa.
2nd visit - 4.4c, 52.8% and 1039.0hPa.
3rd visit - 6.7c, 51.3% and 997.1hPa.

The temperatures matched up with my cars ambient temp readout so believe them to be accurate-ish! and they are all obviously pretty similar ambient conditions for all visits.

Air intake temperatures were taken using the dynos probe and placed close to filter each time.
1st visit - next to the airbox - 14c
2nd visit - down near front bumper for AEM - 28.8c
3rd visit - same as above - 30.3c

This is an interesting point actually as after I fitted the "COLD AIR INTAKE" the intake probe was reading a higher temperature..!?

Also my graph shows only "wheel horsepower" and torque as my way of thinking says that this is just how much power is being put through the dyno rollers, regardless of whats attached to it or what the ambient conditions are. I've seen how the air intake temperate can effect the corrected engine power figure as one of the runs the probe moved and read 70c and the "corrected" p-norm figure jumped right up and the wheel figure stayed similar to always. All the other corrections that are done still don't make a lot of sense to me.

I've emailed EST with my concerns about the reliability and repeatability of the runs so far, asking a few questions... I can only wait to see what they com back with....
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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by 350matt » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:46 pm

I didn't mean that you've been to different dynos I just meant I've no idea whom EST are?

the air intake temp should be measured at the same point each time as this is the correction point for the power calculation
and the 2nd visit was a high barometric pressure so I'd be very interested to see what their correction factor was for that day and what factor they choose to use? As there are several kinds , ISO 1585 is the industry norm

there's nothing wrong with using just wheel HP for the comparison as it at least takes out the fudge factor of coast down figures
however being as you're correcting a smaller number its more difficult to see a difference and any gain you get will be diluted slightly by the transmission losses
ie you gain may be 10bhp at the flywheel but only visible as 8bhp at the wheels , so have you gained 10 or 8 bhp.....?

and yes the runs should also be done in the same gear each time
4th gear is the usual on most cars as its often the closest to 1:1

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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by LeeW » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:52 pm

350matt wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:46 pm
I didn't mean that you've been to different dynos I just meant I've no idea whom EST are?

the air intake temp should be measured at the same point each time as this is the correction point for the power calculation
and the 2nd visit was a high barometric pressure so I'd be very interested to see what their correction factor was for that day and what factor they choose to use? As there are several kinds , ISO 1585 is the industry norm

there's nothing wrong with using just wheel HP for the comparison as it at least takes out the fudge factor of coast down figures
however being as you're correcting a smaller number its more difficult to see a difference and any gain you get will be diluted slightly by the transmission losses
ie you gain may be 10bhp at the flywheel but only visible as 8bhp at the wheels , so have you gained 10 or 8 bhp.....?

and yes the runs should also be done in the same gear each time
4th gear is the usual on most cars as its often the closest to 1:1
All runs were corrected according to DIN 70020 with 0% factor. The corrected figure difference between the two runs was 30hp! Hence my skepticism. I'll upload the actual printouts from the best pulls from both visits and see what you make of the numbers....
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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by LeeW » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:56 pm

Stock best:
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Decat, catback and CAI best:
1.3.pdf
(242.48 KiB) Downloaded 10 times
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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by 13Black » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:02 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if it's the intake that's making things flutter at the top end.
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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by LeeW » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:10 pm

13Black wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:02 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if it's the intake that's making things flutter at the top end.
Yeah would make sense. Although it’s only that pronounced in 1/6 runs where it’s fitted.

For instance this is pull #2 from the same visit.
DD1E8FE5-EFFF-45AC-BAC6-0754B9F297CB.jpeg
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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by 13Black » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:17 pm

Weird, might be worth checking your VDI valve / solenoid etc then I suppose if it's an intermittent thing. Nowhere near 100% sure on that though.

Clutch / tyres slip?
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ChrisHolmes
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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by ChrisHolmes » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:29 pm

350matt wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:46 pm
I didn't mean that you've been to different dynos I just meant I've no idea whom EST are?
https://www.rollingroadregister.com/dyn ... rmance-ltd
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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by warpc0il » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:59 pm

The AEM CAI is the best of a bad bunch and I'm not aware of anyone seeing measurable power improvements from fitting it.

Most peoples motivation is for looks and noise, and if you *can* get the engine running cleanly through the rev range then that's a bonus, as most don't.
Dave
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350matt
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Re: Lee's Kuro Revival

Post by 350matt » Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:03 pm

hmmm ok

DIN70020 Method
This method for power correction, recommended by DIN70020
standard (DIN, 1986), does not account for changes in air humidity.
If changes in the atmospheric conditions are small with respect to a
standard condition, then the engine overall efficiency, fuel specific
heat and air/fuel ratio can all be considered constants. Taking the
engine volumetric efficiency varying proportionally to the square
root of the temperature, the following correlation is written:
( ) ( )
0.5 CF1 º P P0 = p p0
× T0 T (1)
The DIN70020 method indicates the reference atmospheric
condition of p0 = 1.01325 bar and T0 = 293 K.


see here

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/jbsmse/v25n3/a10v25n3.pdf

so the correction factor is a simpler one that will suffer from no humidity correction and this can have quite a strong effect on how the engine runs

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