Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by PeteH » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:21 pm

The car went to Eurospec today to start its engine swap. Don't hold your breath, because I'm expecting it to take a few months.

Removing it from the trailer at Eurospec was the first time it had been started since Rockingham 5 months ago. Started first turn of the key, after about half a second. I love my 8. :D
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by wiggles » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:52 pm

"standard RX8 engine for sale one lady owner low milage, starts first time" ? 😉

Or you keeping it as a spare?
The other N/A 20b that was for sale recently has sold and will be in an RX8 as well apparently... I'm sure yours will be faster though
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by 13Black » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:33 pm

Ms Knight is having it fitted to her car, as I'm led to believe.
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by wiggles » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:07 am

So I guess Chris is doing it at rotary motion then
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Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by PeteH » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:02 am

Some shiny bits turned up today.

The bottom bit is a servo delete, balance adjustable brake box. Above that is a hydraulic handbrake. And the big bit is a 4 gallon fuel tank, swirl pot, pumps and filters.

Huge thanks to OBP Motorsport, who are sponsoring me. Everything here is superb quality. :thumleft:
2018-04-12-23-53-38.jpg
2018-04-12-23-53-38.jpg (196.03 KiB) Viewed 463 times
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by Lemon » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:09 am

Sweet!!

you going to be using the Hydro Handbrake to hang the arse out a bit? :brake: :dsc: :dsc: :dsc:
Thanks, Stu

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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by PeteH » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:16 am

Yep. I've been watching a lot of Roadkill recently, and I may be infected with the need to create tyre smoke everywhere.

Or, alternatively, by regulation I need a handbrake, but I don't want the complication of a mechanical handbrake mechanism on my big rear calipers. So this is the ideal solution.
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by Rotary Potato » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:24 am

A 4 gallon fuel tank.

With a triple rotor?

Well that should get you a good 600 yards between refills! :lol:

Only joking - kit all looks great and I'm sure you've done the calcs to ensure you are carrying enough boom juice. :thumright:
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by PeteH » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:29 am

In Time Attack fuel capacity isn't so critical. 4 gallons should get me through a 15 minute session, as long as I do cool down laps. But It does mean the car isn't going to be a circuit racer anymore.... The first good news is that I won't have to keep 3 gallons in the car just to prevent fuel starvation, since I will be able to run down to fumes now. The second good news is that all of those bits, including all the packaging they came in, still weighs much less than the bare RX-8 fuel tank (which I actually forgot to weigh before I got rid of it :( )
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by 13Black » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:34 pm

Any plans for a 1.5-way diff? I think you need this. I think you need to convince yourself you need this also.
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by PeteH » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:37 pm

Why don't you sponsor me, and provide me with one......? :thumright:
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by ChrisHolmes » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:13 pm

PeteH wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:02 am
Some shiny bits turned up today.

The bottom bit is a servo delete, balance adjustable brake box. Above that is a hydraulic handbrake. And the big bit is a 4 gallon fuel tank, swirl pot, pumps and filters.

Huge thanks to OBP Motorsport, who are sponsoring me. Everything here is superb quality. :thumleft:
2018-04-12-23-53-38.jpg
Well that's another day of your life taken up fitting that lot!
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by casey » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:59 pm

Pete's got a team at Eurospec to do that - no need for him to get his hands oily ;) :D
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by 13Black » Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:06 am

PeteH wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:37 pm
Why don't you sponsor me, and provide me with one......? :thumright:

Sweetie, look at your lightweight doors.
What do you see?
Carbon fibre.

Look at my lightweight doors.
What do you see?
A ball gag and a cable tie.

If Ben's coffers don't run deep enough for a trick diff, do you really want something I'm gonna to knock up fitted to your 350hp machine? [-X
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by macgtech » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:53 pm

Highly recommend the LSD - works wonders in our car, even if a little clunky/jerky at low speed.
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by PeteH » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:48 pm

Ta. I assume you mean the turbo? Did you have it on the NA car?

An LSD is tempting, but I can't help feeling there's more lap time in a dog box (or maybe it's just that dog boxes are cooler :-k ). Damn this whole "being self-funded" lark :evil:
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by Goobie » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:15 pm

PeteH wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:48 pm
I can't help feeling there's more lap time in a dog box (or maybe it's just that dog boxes are cooler :-k ). Damn this whole "being self-funded" lark :evil:
DO IT! You can be my tester, so I know if it’s to loud for a road car. What one have you got your eye on Pete?

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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by Conan » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:03 am

There’s more time in time in the seat than anything else as all the old racers used to say to me (but did I listen)
I’d have thought a man of your caliber could take out the synchro,s and grind 50% of the dogs off in a standard box ;)
More time in the handling than power or shifting, ( Have I mentioned the PZ suspension group buy ) :)
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by PeteH » Fri May 25, 2018 1:49 pm

Mapping 101....

I am getting much closer to my aim of generating base ignition and fuel maps from basic data.

Ignition
Currently my optimum ignition map for MBT (mean best torque) is:
Optimum ignition.jpg
Optimum ignition.jpg (32.81 KiB) Viewed 135 times
If you could run this, you would get a 22bhp power boost over the stock timing:
Optimum ignition - Power Curve.jpg
Optimum ignition - Power Curve.jpg (32.11 KiB) Viewed 135 times
Note that these power and torque curves are generated from first principles. It's a full engine combustion model, which I think is quite cool.

You can't run this timing because any engine will detonate itself to pieces with 60deg of advance, but it shows how much is to be gained by optimising the timing. Certainly, using high octane fuel will allow you to get much more power through advancing the timing. The difficulty is that in a rotary you just can't risk detonation, so I have to decide how brave I'm feeling....

I'm not quite happy with this spreadsheet yet, so I'm not posting it up at the moment.

Fuel
This will be my base fuel map for my 20B. It is calculated from first principles, and includes everything I can think of. It allows me to generate a base map using only throttle and rpm. It's hideously complicated to calculate, so please don't ask for simple explanations!
Fuel map.jpg
I am now happy with the fuel map calculation, so I am happy to include the worksheet here (note that you will need to change the extension from .xls to .xlsm, because the forum doesn't like macros). If you do want to play with it, only change the yellow boxes in the "User Inputs" tab. If you make a proper map you will also need to specify your injectors (in tab "Injector Spec"), but that's complicated, and you may not have all the info.

Enjoy!
Attachments
Engine Mapping - RX8 - 20B.xls
(658.61 KiB) Downloaded 4 times
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by MintyFreshRacing » Fri May 25, 2018 2:09 pm

Pete,

Was your old RX8 engine bridge ported at all, or completely standard?
I'm about to install a 1.5 way diff in my car, I'll let you know the difference in feel. But that's not likely to be for a few months as I'm doing the same as you with the fuel tank and also need to buy some suspension that's not stock!

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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by PeteH » Fri May 25, 2018 2:19 pm

My 2 rotor is stock from the throttle body to the exhaust flange. The intake is Revi, the exhaust is unique, it's had a map done, and most of the external accessories have gone. That's as much as the regs allowed me to do.

No such restrictions with the 3 rotor though. :twisted:

Ps. My latest parcel of shiny goodness arrived yesterday. Pics soon.....
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by PeteH » Mon May 28, 2018 11:58 am

As promised, this is my latest parcel of shiny goodness:
20180525_234720.jpg
20180525_234720.jpg (244.9 KiB) Viewed 83 times
As far as I'm aware, this is the first polycarbonate windscreen made for the RX-8. Plastics4Performance are a great company to deal with. They agreed the do the windscreen, gave me a delivery date, delivered on that exact date, and the quality of everything looks first class.

At some point I will actually start putting all these things on the car....
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by PeteH » Mon May 28, 2018 12:30 pm

Ps. Someone asked why the power and torque curves don't cross at 5250rpm, because they always cross at 5250rpm, right?

Nope. It depends on the units you use. In fact the calculation is astonishingly simple if you stick to SI units:

Engine Speed (rad/s) = Power (W) / Torque (Nm)
.. So the point at which the curves cross (when power = torque) is just 1 rad/s. That's it. It's that simple, in SI units. Stick to SI everyone, because it makes everything child's play.

My curves were plotted in bhp and Nm, and the calculation needs to take into account the unit conversions from bhp to W, and from rpm to rad/s:
Engine Speed (rpm) = (745.7 * 60 / (2 * pi)) * Power (bhp) / Torque (Nm)
.. So the point at which these curves cross is 745.7 * 60 / (2 * pi) = 7120.9rpm
If you look at my curves closely you will see this happens.

Dyno curves are often plotted in bhp and lbs.ft, and the calculation needs to take into account the unit conversions from bhp to W, and from lbs.ft to Nm, and from rpm to rad/s:
Engine Speed (rpm) = (745.7 * 60 * 2.20462 * 1000/ (2 * pi * 9.80665 * 25.4 * 12)) * Power (bhp) / Torque (lbs.ft)
.. So the point at which these curves cross is 745.7 * 60 * 2.20462 * 1000/ (2 * pi * 9.80665 * 25.4 * 12) = 5252.1rpm
That the value everyone 'knows', and note that it's not quite 5250 ;) :lol:
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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by 350matt » Mon May 28, 2018 7:58 pm

PeteH wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 1:49 pm
Mapping 101....

I am getting much closer to my aim of generating base ignition and fuel maps from basic data.

Ignition
Currently my optimum ignition map for MBT (mean best torque) is:
Optimum ignition.jpg

If you could run this, you would get a 22bhp power boost over the stock timing:
Optimum ignition - Power Curve.jpg
Note that these power and torque curves are generated from first principles. It's a full engine combustion model, which I think is quite cool.

You can't run this timing because any engine will detonate itself to pieces with 60deg of advance, but it shows how much is to be gained by optimising the timing. Certainly, using high octane fuel will allow you to get much more power through advancing the timing. The difficulty is that in a rotary you just can't risk detonation, so I have to decide how brave I'm feeling....

I'm not quite happy with this spreadsheet yet, so I'm not posting it up at the moment.

Fuel
This will be my base fuel map for my 20B. It is calculated from first principles, and includes everything I can think of. It allows me to generate a base map using only throttle and rpm. It's hideously complicated to calculate, so please don't ask for simple explanations!
Fuel map.jpg

I am now happy with the fuel map calculation, so I am happy to include the worksheet here (note that you will need to change the extension from .xls to .xlsm, because the forum doesn't like macros). If you do want to play with it, only change the yellow boxes in the "User Inputs" tab. If you make a proper map you will also need to specify your injectors (in tab "Injector Spec"), but that's complicated, and you may not have all the info.

Enjoy!
I didn't realise the stock ignition map stopped short at 30 degrees!

that's appalling, do any of the tuners advance the ignition if you've got a decat and / or sports exhaust ?

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Re: Pete's RX-8 Time Attack project

Post by PeteH » Mon May 28, 2018 8:16 pm

I think the problem is that if a rotary detonates then there is a good chance you will blow the apex seals. So no-one can afford to risk tuning right into the knock region.

It's easiest to assume that Mazda did a reasonable job, and stick with it. You can certainly push it by a couple of degrees, particularly if you only ever run V-Power or similar.

I talked to a big ECU manufacturer, and they said they didn't have a big enough stock of rotaries to find out where the knock limit is.....

Incidentally, it's even worse than it sounds, because timing is done on the e-shaft rotation, where 30 degrees at the e-shaft is equivalent to 22.5 degrees at the rotor......
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